Change and transformation in complex organizations with Gia Thi Nguyen
#033 Let’s find out how to engage people in complex change projects.
In this episode, I’m talking with Gia Thi Nguyen about change and transformation in complex organizations. He summarizes his experiences from various change projects and relates them to the human-centric BPM approach.
Let’s find out how he got all the people involved in the transformation and what he recommends to process owners to get people on board for complex change projects. We also talk about process mining and its impact on these change projects.
Today’s Guest:
Gia Thi Nguyen
Thi is currently working at SAP in Singapur as VP for SAP Signavio’s Market Impact in Asia. Before that, he worked for nearly 20 years in various roles at Siemens. To highlight and summarise, he worked in six countries with various functions from being a CIO in Vietnam implementing SAP for a company and plant that was set up in parallel, restructuring and turning around acquired companies in Spain as the CFO, or leading as the Global Head of Operational Excellence for Siemens Digital Industries change on a large scale by kickstarting Siemens’ Process Mining journey with the introduction of a Digital Twin of the organization.
He enjoys supporting the Plastic Bank and is also on the board of the German non-profit organization of the Plastic Bank Foundation.
Thi also has a really cool LinkedIn video series called “Tea with Thi” about digital transformation which is quite entertaining and interesting at the same time.
You’ll learn:
- How to get all the people on board for transformations
- Including Thi’s recommendations to process owners to get people on board for complex change projects
- and what to take into account in complex organizations
- We’ll have a follow-up on the previous episode with Wil van der Aalst and talk about Thi’s experiences in introducing process mining at Siemens, especially with regard to different countries and cultures.
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Transcript
Please note that the transcript was generated automatically and only slightly adjusted. It does not claim to be a perfect transcription.
Transkript
Mirko:
0:19
Yeah, welcome to episode 33 of the New Process Podcast. Today it’s all about change and transformation in complex organizations and, as it turned out during the interview, it’s also a little bit about process mining. So today I’m talking to Gia Thi Nguyen. Thi is currently working at SAP in Singapore as vice president for SAP Signavio’s Market Impact in Asia. Before that, he worked for nearly 20 years in various roles at Siemens. To highlight and summarize, he worked in six countries with various functions, from being a CIO in Vietnam implementing SAP for a company and plan that was set up in parallel, or restructuring and turning around acquired companies in Spain as the CFO. And he also led as the global head of operational excellence for Siemens digital industries Change on a large scale by kickstarting Siemens process mining journey with the introduction of a digital twin of the organization. So we’ll learn more about that in the interview. He enjoys supporting the plastic bank and is also on the board of the German non-profit organization of the Plastic Bank Foundation. Thi has also a really cool link in video series called Thi with Thi about digital transformation, which is quite entertaining and interesting at the same time. So if you haven’t listened to that up to now you have to. I’ll put the link into the show notes later on. What is in for you today? you’ll learn how to get all the people on board for transformations, including these recommendations to process owners to get people on board for complex change projects And what to take into account in complex organizations. We’ll have a follow up on the previous episode with Will van der Ars and we’re going to talk about these experiences introducing process mining at Siemens, especially with regards to different countries and cultures. So enjoy the interview with Thi.
Mirko:
2:25
Yeah, welcome to the new process podcast, thi. it’s great to have you here today. Today it’s not Thi with Thi, it’s just a conversation between you and me. So welcome, thi. Thanks for having me. Yeah, great. So let’s dive right into the check in. What do you prefer in an aircraft, isle or window seat?
Thi:
2:43
It depends on the short term short time flights window. On long haul, definitely I’ll see.
Mirko:
2:50
Yeah, ok, short time window, that’s good. I was flying from Stuttgart to Hamburg yesterday and also had a window seat And that was beautiful to see Hamburg in the afternoon. That was great. Also, stuttgart was nice, ok, what is your favorite airport?
Thi:
3:08
I think I don’t have actually a single one favorite airport. I think every airport has its charm, but if I have to give you, let’s say, three airports, i do like Changi, of course, in Singapore absolutely efficient immigration. I never take more than two minutes, to be honest.
Mirko:
3:22
Really.
Thi:
3:23
That’s cool. I also love the old Berlin Tegel, otto Lien ental because this is where I was born and grew up, but each and every gate had their own luggage conveyor, so you never needed to look where’s your luggage. It’s just there, right? It was that small back in the days, and I do also love the Nuremberg or it’s very. That’s a compact size. And it has a direct metro access to it, but I mean metro at the same price as if you would go anywhere. So that was actually my three.
Mirko:
3:54
OK, yeah, that’s interesting. I also like Nuremberg, but I only got a rental car there, so never tried public transportation in Nuremberg before. But we’ll see Cool. So what was the best process you have ever experienced?
Thi:
4:08
Well, this is a tough question, but if I think of one I really, let’s say, remember very well, is probably a customer success process in online gaming where you play with real money And the reason is that they want the best of you, which is our money. So, therefore, any time I had any engagement, i had the necessary amount of automation, but also the necessary amount of human interaction, and when it got heated up, i got money. So really literally like escalated the topic, a person called me and said you don’t know who I am but you will get money, ok, hundred dollars, credited to your account. Yeah, so they really know how to deal with the customer.
Mirko:
5:00
OK, yeah, that sounds good And it was really person who called you, not a computer, that’s correct. Ok, cool. So let’s get closer to the topic of today of processes. How would you describe your relationship to processes?
Thi:
5:16
Well, i think, actually my relationship to processes is actually quite common and similar to everyone, which basically means I’m a 40 years old, so my relationship with processes is 40 years, meaning everyone is experiencing processes. And when we talk about, let’s say, the practice of business process management, of course, then my formal job has brought me into that realm, let’s say, really from the beginning of my career, so over 20 years ago. But I think it’s really a hate-love relationship in a very positive and optimistic point of view, because I have never seen a person who likes a bad process, and I think this is something really humbling and also something that connects us, that even if. I can’t change the past of having experienced bad processes. I still get a lot of let’s say, also gratification, satisfaction of improving it for other people to experience. So for me it’s okay. The ship has sailed, the train has passed, but I think processes are everywhere. Processes affect everyone. No one likes a bad process And I think that’s my relationship with processes in a nutshell here.
Mirko:
6:37
Okay, perfect, and I already introduced you as vice president for SAP’s Zignavius Market Impact in the Asia-Pacific, japan and Greater China region. Is that correct?
Thi:
6:50
That is correct, yes, And market impact is actually quite easily to be described Basically. It’s part of our marketing activities And marketing really entails all aspects of marketing, whether it’s product marketing, field marketing, all the events, the communication, But it also includes the evangelization and the port leadership around the value proposition, really from the beginning to the end. It’s also about the demand generation. It’s about enablement internal, external. So it’s a very wide range And that’s why we are also a very, very diverse team of very, very different kind of experiences, And that makes it very exciting Yeah okay, i can imagine, before joining SAP, you had various transformation projects within Siemens.
Mirko:
7:38
Which one was the most challenging there?
Thi:
7:41
Let me try to give you a little bit of a complex answer, but I keep it simple. I think the most challenging project was always the next one And the most challenging while I’m experiencing this is the current one, because I think that every situation has different kind of challenges. And let me just share maybe two, three different transformation projects I did and why they were challenging in their own way. So, for example, in 2005, i was implementing SAP ERP in Vietnam. So Siemens Vietnam at that time had a no ERP solution And then we basically implemented the whole thing FICO, sdmm and PP, even production We set up a new factory. And you have to imagine, we implemented it, hired new people and then really went from Big Bang with no legacy, no history, to full blown SAP ERP implementation. So that was quite challenging. And, yeah, i was a CIO at that time and I had zero experience of hardware or of anything. So that was actually pretty challenging because I come from the application arena, but I was also having to buy printers and things like that. There was no cloud at that time. Another one was in Spain, 2010. So if you remember, i hope you can forget, but in 2010, spain, italy, portugal, went through a very long economic crisis and I was the CFO of a Siemens affiliated company and I had to really lay off over 70% of the entire workforce. So we went through a major restructuring. And then again, zero Spanish skills when I arrived, zero CFO skills. I have never worked in my life in accounting controlling before. So I really come from an IT background, always focusing on processes. Yes, that’s true. But yeah, there it was. And probably the last really big challenge was during Corona. Everyone left Vietnam. You know, every foreign expat left Vietnam. I went in, so I was literally on a consular airplane because already no one was allowed to come in and I worked in healthcare, so I led the team of around 80 people in service. I led the service business of Siemens Healthcare. Again, zero percent experience in healthcare. I never had a, luckily. I never even knew what a CT is in my life. I never seen one live. I see it in the pictures, but to really understand what’s the difference between MRI, a CT X-ray it’s very humbling to be able to learn these things. And yeah, so these are three examples of big transformation topics on an internal level, but also externally. We had to do quite a lot of things. You can imagine COVID time service, how to keep operations running And then, at the same time, pushing healthcare 4.0.
Mirko:
10:35
Yeah, okay, that’s not super interesting And you know I’m fighting a lot for human-centric BPM approach. In all these complex change processes you were leading, how did you manage to get the people excited, to get them on board, to involve them? What was the trick there? the recipe.
Thi:
10:53
I think there’s really not a trick or a recipe there, but if I go, let’s say, quotes and quotes on the lessons learned aspect, i think this is really not a big secret. People do like authentic people and they like to be able to trust someone. But also, in order to be able to trust somebody, there are different things you can do And, to be honest, the first thing we can do is to listen. And again, when I mentioned you’re like, how would you feel if you have been working in a factory for many, many years and then you get a new boss he’s the CFO and you, let’s say, for example, you have a head of accounting controlling and you find out this guy is, i don’t know, 15 years younger than you, has never worked in finance, and now he is supposed to do this major restructuring. What can I do? Can I say this is a strategy, this is what we have to do together is better? No, of course not. The first thing I do is to listen and ask better questions And then, by that, then the people will know okay, that’s how to do it. So how to get all the people excited or happy is, of course, a very, very noble vision or something we could be looking forward to, but it’s impossible because somebody who really wants to make everyone happy will actually make everyone unhappy. And, honestly, it is actually a very, very transparent and fair thing to say from the beginning. I will not make everyone happy, but I will want to make at least 80% happy and 20% of my effort And I will still take 80% of my effort to do my best for the last 20% where possible, and please raise your hand and help me on achieving that. And then actually things do work. And if you talk about, let’s say, are you interested in the products, are you interested in my customers, are you interested in suppliers? That’s what I did. Every day I go onto the shop floor and I want to understand and I don’t ask stupid questions, trivia, and then just never come back there. But I ask hey, yesterday you told me about work and progress. These are the crates, why are they still here? What happens to my supply chain? And then people actually understand this person actually really means it when he is asking how does the flow of goods on the factory shop floor, for example, work? And then if you get the acceptance on the shop floor but also in the boardroom. Then people will trust you And then you can also talk about other things, quotes and quotes, other things meaning about processes, and I will probably mention this quite a lot of times. So this is the spoiler alert If you want to achieve anything, don’t talk about it. If you want to lead a human-centric transformation, don’t talk about I’m for humans. If you’re not for humans, what are you for them? So the thing is that they will come to that conclusion that you are indeed human-centric, so that’s why you don’t need to mention it. If I want to improve processes, you know what I always said I’m not here to improve your processes. You are already improving your processes. The best way you can and know My job is to help you on the how to do what you’re doing anyhow, so I’m not here to tell you how to do it differently. I’m just here to listen, to understand how things are there and this, and if you call it process, if you call it cooking, if you call it playing the violin, that’s all related to a process, isn’t it?
Mirko:
14:10
Yeah, absolutely, it is for sure. Okay, okay, that’s a good approach, i’d say, and transferring that even more to processes. So let’s imagine I’m process owner of a bigger process and there is a transformation coming up. What would you recommend to me on how to approach the people, how to get them involved?
Thi:
14:36
more specific with regards to processes, I mean probably too long for a podcast so we can actually split the podcast. But I think there’s really way too many things there and there’s really unfortunately also, let’s say, this kind of instant gratification approach, often to think you know what’s my cookbook recipe, what are the top 10, what are the top three, what are the most common things? and of course, they are all relevant, don’t get me wrong here. I’m not gonna be saying that they are not important. But what I really believe is that the most important thing is actually to listen and then to really shape, based on your experience, based on different kind of patterns, their own, personalized, let’s say, recommendations. But if we are, let’s say, using my experience, on a scale, of course there are the common themes around starting small and then scale. I also talk a lot about the so-called concept of when you have moving targets. That’s child’s play, that’s easy, because everyone will have this challenge. But I’m talking about this moving baselines. That’s even worse than actually moving the foundation on where you stand. They’re saying you’re spending X amount, you need to save 20% Tomorrow. They actually say, oh, you actually spend that amount, you need to save Y? Whoa, you just change the baseline. That is actually something which is really a thing. The other thing is like, for example, don’t focus too much on the targets, focus on the triggering events to move toward the target, because then the target is just a target. I always say I’m a finance guy. I said can you improve the EBIT? Of course you cannot. Whoever told you you can improve EBIT is a liar. You can improve your top line, your revenues, and you can improve the cost position, and then the resulting thing is called EBIT. So we should look at the other things. So that’s why don’t focus too much on the targets, but understand how the targets are influenced. I talk about having a compass and a map, because if you have a map but you don’t know which way to read it, then it’s also not worth it. So sometimes you just need a compass, the directions, even if you go left or right. Then no one talked about it. What else? Resistance to change? Honestly, i don’t buy this stuff. There is no resistance to change. Resistance to change is really the greatest library of knowledge. Talk to these people. Ask them why are you resistant? Because probably you wanted to change what somebody else wasn’t listening, and that’s why you’re resistant to change, because you can’t deal with the same BS force fed into you And that’s why they’re resistant to change. Otherwise, no one is resistant to change. I told you everyone loves a good process, and also even everyone well, not everyone, most of the people would also sacrifice their own process that somebody else has a good process If they really see it. If everyone was just talking or you need to take the bullet for the team no, they’re not, but if they see that you know. So, yeah, i mean I’m plugging a lot of my tea with tea episodes here. Sorry about that, but really, if we look for the secret sauce, it’s a hard to swallow pill. There is none, and I also talk a lot about this so-called content as king context, as king Kong, and this is something what is really important And maybe to make. If I have to now sorry, elaborate answer, but if I have to pinpoint on one thing I can recommend process owners to do contact me. We have a tea with tea. I talk, i will listen And let’s see if I can help you. That’s probably the first thing, and if I cannot, then at least they confirm that they are on the right track, right, i mean, it’s also a good thing. So I am what I share, and that’s basically maybe the number one thing I can recommend.
Mirko:
18:17
Yeah, i listened to two of your videos this morning because they were presented I don’t know why in my stream today on LinkedIn. They really gave me food for thought. So one was about an isau durch Treiben, i don’t know Have a new bus thing in the village. Whatever Exactly, and it’s really inspiring to watch your tea with tea videos there, and I think conversation with you is always great, as we’re having here right now. But I want to push it one step further. So you’re now coming from, i would say, slightly complex organizations like Siemens. You’re working for SAP right now. I’ve been working for Lufthansa Group, which definitely is sometimes a little bit complex. What would you recommend for environments like these very complex organizations with regards to change, in addition to what you just said?
Thi:
19:13
I always say that systems towards platforms, technology, is very complex, and that’s true. But only people have the capability to be complicated, because even in the most complex system with the extreme rare frequency, when there are a bite swaps there but that’s a totally different topic of physics and science But usually whatever comes in or the producer will come out, the same way if it is about technology systems. But people know, sometimes a good day, sometimes a bad day, you can ask me what’s the time, as I tell you the time. You ask me what’s the time, it’s what you want from me. People are complicated. So, yes, again, listen to the power movements. The power flows, and that don’t mean power in a bad way, but really power is flowing. Understanding how power is exerted, how it’s shown I think there’s something really cool called the cultural web from schools in Johnson, i think it’s called. So there’s a different kind of aspects on how a culture is being built. There’s six different aspects organizational they talk about symbols and things like that And I think what is really exciting is about me. It has a peculiar experience because I don’t get nervous anymore when I have a big speech or things like that, and the reason is because I have been trained from very, very young age to deliver performances, whether it’s musical, whether it’s athletic, and then I also had the chance to do a lot of public speaking. So I think Simon Sinek actually put it very well. He said, like you know, olympic athletes, they try to get excited, they’re not nervous. So it is really the positive part of it And that’s basically what is also my recommendation The bigger the challenge, the higher the complexity. Try to sorry fist in your pants, but only once, and then afterwards get excited. When you get excited, to draw the line to say and not worse, from here, this is the worst we have ever been, from now on. I think that’s a really exciting thing And I think this is something I understand. You know, like you can think about being focused, or is it a tunnel vision? you know, and to be honest, i think in large organizations, the problem is not the complexity, because the complexity is a fact, that is there anyhow. I think it’s much more about some people’s relationship, reality, to accept what is the reality, and also the hubris in addressing topics. So I really believe in a complex organization if you have the quotes and quotes, crazy people. To me, those are the most normal things in people, because they want it to be in a different way. So that’s why, for us, we always talked about and I hate the word there, but we always talk about new normal, but now it seems to be looking backwards, looking forward, it seems so far away. I mean, you have been probably also trying to make a video call with net meeting and typing in the IP and then somebody says all the port is not open. Right back in the days Now we do podcast video, no problem. So that’s why I think in most complex, just the attitude towards it matters a lot.
Mirko:
22:40
Yeah, that’s so true. I can fully agree to what you just said. You just mentioned the word new normal. In the previous episode I was talking to Will van der Arts about process mining and there he said he hopes that process mining is going to be the new normal so that all companies just have it there as a tool to improve processes. You have been a process mining pioneer, i would say, at Siemens, so you introduced process mining there. I was working on the same within the Lufthansa group and there my biggest challenge in the beginning has always been how to convince the top management on investing into process mining technology, because it’s not new normal or it’s not normal, or it wasn’t normal at that time and it still isn’t, i guess. But how did you convince your management to invest into process mining?
Thi:
23:33
To be absolutely transparent. And there I actually had a little bit of tailwind there because Lars Reinkermeyer a good old friend now working for the competition, but still my friend he already set the foundation in terms of the IT environment. So basically he already pushed for a corporate service, meaning that me as a business owner could actually utilize. So he already did the upward battle to say we should invest. So he actually did it really on behalf of the business itself. But it is true, the question is still very valid, because we needed to continuously show value in order to get any additional invest. So often it’s very hard to get the first invest, absolutely agree but sometimes the second invest is even harder because it’s much bigger and the people want to see the value. So let’s talk about, let’s say, quotes and quotes. Second invest And again, in order for the top management to invest in process mining is to not talk about process mining but to talk about outputs. And I think it is really really important to understand that, even as the largest process mining user at that time, siemens had zero benefits realized by just using process mining. We uncover with the analysis different things we had to do, but these actions were cleaning up master data, adjusting, customizing, tweaking, others talking to people asking if I put in this activity to you, we have one less handover and therefore also less variations, and you can take that and I will increase, for example, the threshold of you to approve, then we don’t have all of this ping-ponging around. I think these are the things we need to address, because the technology itself, of course, does not give you the value, but it’s basically the technology shows you where the value is and then you still have to do the work, but obviously you have a higher confidence to know where to work and where to address these things. And there’s actually one funny correlation was that actually we were somehow also tracking the usage of process mining by country, by country, and we saw that the countries who use process mining the most in terms of time actually improved the least. Don’t get me wrong. All countries improved and we are very happy about it. But the rate of improvement was actually slower in comparison to other countries when they just used it too much. And why? Because they just stared at the screen for 20 hours and said, oh, i have to approve, and they didn’t do it. Other countries, they said very clearly let’s do it continuously, once a month, two times a month, we look at it and then we look at it again and we see improvements, because we know that the hard work is somewhere else. But it’s also fair to say it’s very hard if you didn’t have these kind of tools, because you could not otherwise ask these kind of Questions. Yeah, and then of course, as I mentioned earlier, i was a CFO, so I also use CFO tricks to also make sure that we would get the investments. Just spoiler, i’m also a certified scrum master and agile coach plus CFO. So I therefore then said we must also do our eyes and sprints. So sprints is, of course, always smaller than the yearly budget cycle. Yeah, and there is not one executive Who would actually Deny you to, let’s say, go against the initial plan If you get more value With no additional net investment. So what it means in the language of the CFO There’s a cost base and with the their in-cost already approved, i Would just reshift some things, so nothing will be added new, but the benefits we have planned let’s say 7%, i will give you now 11. No one will say no, you can’t do that. And that’s basically what you need to do. You need to deliver value fast, because speed becomes a currency by itself, it becomes a category by itself. Yeah, i’m not saying that everything what is fastest better, but what I’m trying to say is that we talk about things like resistance to change and stuff like that. Well, it also increases if you’re too slow, because it also decreases your authenticity. It decreases the confidence other people have in you, the trust. So therefore, speed is also very important.
Mirko:
28:11
Mm-hmm. Okay, you just mentioned that you Executed process mining projects in different countries. What was where the differences you experienced? there was regards to the cultures of the countries. Where was it easier to apply process mining and where was it harder to do it?
Thi:
28:28
something, of course, you cannot know is but the on an average I also mentor an advice around 20 to 30 Bachelor, masters and PhD works, and this is the most common question. There’s always some bachelor or masters pieces around the difference of process mining, country A and B and things. Yeah, okay, and I find this question extremely, extremely interesting, to be honest, because I don’t think But a particular Technology would be so different in a country. So it might be true that maybe Qr code adoption is much faster in China versus in Germany, or that the use of robots in Japan in a hotel is much easier to use than in In the Netherlands, or something like that. I don’t know, maybe there’s some. But when it comes to process mining implementation, there was really no difference in terms of the aspect of the technology itself, when it comes to transparency. But there was obviously a difference in terms of the maturity, in terms of the output metrics, which where, let’s say, our, our targeted. There we had the so-called digital fit rate, which basically measured the numbers of manual interactions end to end in the order to cash process, and So basically, menu interactions below are the better. So we basically saw that some countries were really, really good having very, very low digital fit rates and Basically so, if you are below one, it basically means that a number of Your online items are totally invisible to the organization because they went in and out Totally automated, no interaction whatsoever across all the steps, not only one step, all the steps, so that maturity was totally different. So therefore, in different countries, they had different focus areas in terms of, let’s say, increasing automation. Other countries had a focus on reducing menu rework. Other countries had to do baseline and create good models or standardizations first. Yeah, so that definitely changed. But also one of the questions I get a lot Is and I know you haven’t asked it, but I think it’s associated to it It’s, it’s just a language topic. If I go to the US and talk about BPM, they say I don’t care about processes, i care about outcomes. If I go to Germany or the Netherlands to talk about processor, we have a really cool discussion about process, very mature. If I go to I don’t know Japan talk about processes, they say I’m not process driven, all of this is just a language matter. The father of a homeland, of quality management, of all of this topics mood of waste. It’s from Japan, so just talk their language, mm-hmm, talk the language of what it means to be process manager In the US. Of course, talk hammer, yeah, talk about the reengineering That’s also process. So just, it’s an issue of positioning. So therefore, of course, process mining is quotes and quotes easier to position because there is no legacy, there’s no bad experience to it being quotes and quotes luggage. Yeah, and that is probably the bad rap about BPM. Process mining, of course, has this uplift as being something totally new.
Mirko:
31:45
Yeah, okay, and in the beginning I think the people where you introduce process mining did not know what that really is, so maybe they thought, ah, now you’re going to analyze my performance and I don’t want to participate in the project. How did you get the people excited about process mining?
Thi:
32:03
Maybe it’s important to understand that I was never in charge of process mining, or I didn’t, let’s say, implement it. Process mining was just a small slice of my overall portfolio of responsibility. So I was the global order to cash process owner responsible for Siemens digital industries, and later on then I also was in charge of offer to order, which is a totally different game. So we talked about CPQ your computer price quotations, things like that And I was also the global pricing manager as well. So I had a multitude of things. The implementation of process mining was, of course, a very visible one, absolutely true. But at the same time, i also had to set up chat service centers in Bulgaria, poland and Portugal, for example. So we had also major restructuring topics. So I had some past in Spain, so that’s why I know how to do restructuring. So, therefore, when I appear in front of my local stakeholders, we talk about outcomes, we talk about the reduction of preventable manual rework, we talk about customer NPS, we talk about standardization, cycle types and things like that, and that we did through process mining, rpas, workflows and other things. So I think this is really important to understand. You need to have the full stack out there and then just small pitch. That’s why I’m at SAP Signavio, because we do all of these things, and I think this is really the important aspect. That’s an important aspect. So that’s why there were some times where you had executive and they had to say do I have RPA? Yes, check. Do I have process mining? Yes, check, anything. Ai, something, something, something Yes, check. And then the next year was how many bots do you have? Oh shit, i have only. Oh, sorry, sorry. I only have 200 bots. Oh, no, let’s build up another set of excellence and then we do a diss. Yeah, i was never about that part, so I never valued my responsibility. How big is my COE? Do I have a COE or something like that? This doesn’t matter. No man as no man. And the important part is can you deliver consistently outcomes And it is true, often they are purely financial. I don’t have to like it, but I still have to deliver it, and we continuously deliver it on that And, yes, through the use of putting different technologies together.
Mirko:
34:36
Yeah, ok, that’s super interesting to have your how should I say it? human-centric, financial, process-oriented view onto the world of business. That’s super cool. Taking all this experience, what would be your top three recommendations to our listeners? to get to more human-centric BPM. To inspire people for processes, to rethink processes.
Thi:
34:59
Again, i can’t. I can repeat it. Yeah, and we have it on record. Anyone, please contact me. I will listen to your situation, your contacts and I will give you personalized top three recommendations after I listen to your story. OK, that’s an awesome, and of course, there will be some. That’s a common things. But I think, maybe, if I can share one of my favorite quotes, yeah, and it is science provides an understanding of a universal experience And arts provide a universal understanding of a personal experience. And that quote came from May Jamison, first African-American female astronaut, and I think it is really true. So we can have the theory, which is true and relevant, just as averages are right. The average German drinks x liters of beer, eats x kilograms of chocolate, but you will find not one single person in the world who fits that. But statistically speaking, that is right And that is really also just to share you, maybe, without saying the names. I’m also working with social organizations, community organizations, so process management is extremely important for them because they need to be able to provide a standardized service. But once someone is affected disability, accidents, whatever it’s one human they need to serve And they understand that if one human is impacted, it always impacts the entire community. That is really, really important.
Mirko:
36:31
OK, thank you for this recommendations and especially for the offer of contacting you to get personalized recommendations. That’s super cool. So how can our listeners contact you, learn more about your activities?
Thi:
36:44
I guess probably the easiest way is LinkedIn. Basically, you will probably include my info anyway in the podcast or just really follow the hashtag the tea with tea. So it’s a tea, a drink with tea. T-h-i my name And yeah, you can really message me. I probably won’t be able to reply always immediately, but I will actually always reply And yeah, so that’s probably the easiest way to find me.
Mirko:
37:09
Yeah, i’ll put the links into the show notes And I can definitely recommend to follow your videos. Tea with tea That’s super inspiring and always a lot of food for thought, i would say. So that’s super cool. Keep on going with this great video series. That’s just amazing. One last content-related question here What would you recommend to me or to the community to have a closer look on methodology? a tool, an expert to get new ideas on how to rethink processes? Whom or what would you recommend?
Thi:
37:41
I think to be honest in a generic way, anything what you don’t know yet. So be curious and learn about something new, i guess, because if it wasn’t for you, at least one last thing in the universe. I was talking to a rocket scientist earlier well, not rocket scientist, to a professor of the astronauts and all of these things there. So send satellites and rockets up there. And he told me, for example, about the V-shape method how you come from the top, you break it down into little parts, then you have to recompose it back down Absolutely amazing in systems engineering. I never heard about that, so that was really really interesting. But if you really want to not invest in any technology tool subscription or whatever, there’s a really really cool tool which we have And this is our tool ears. We have one mouth, so listen and then talk. And yeah, so it does drain a lot of energy. By the way, it’s actually easier to talk and to listen, and I think one guidance in terms of content I can give is which is, of course, it’s an extreme hard thing. I don’t want to say that it’s easy, but I just want to make aware again, it’s so, so normal and we should know it. But the biggest challenge we have is actually between correlation and causality. Yeah, so, for example, it’s very correlated when it rains, the road is wet, but it doesn’t mean when the road is wet it must have rained. Somebody put some water on that. And this is something this search, this kind of discovery, what is correlated technology can help us very, very well. How is it? What’s the causality, how’s the context, in that sense of the content? Well, that’s harder, but that’s what, honestly, what I’m passionate about And, yeah, so really be. I mean, it sounds so Instagram, but be curious but also do it. And I think one of the episodes I did on TFT was like we have mastered the three R’s, right, we have mastered the reuse, recycle, but I said, unfortunately, only on social media we reduce the quality of our content. We have reused other people’s content over and over and over. I don’t know how many times I have to read the same article from MIT and have a business review. I mean, it’s great articles, but where is your own content? What makes you you And recycling the thing? I honestly, i really love Simon Sinek, but I can’t listen to it anymore because everyone talks about it and no one does anything about it. And I think this was also a little bit of the topic of the Anenoie Zau durch Storff treiben is. I love these things and some of them didn’t turn out great. So, yes, i really. I literally researched into K-pop bands to understand they are metaverse for many, many years already, incredible. And they really understand what it means to have product lifecycle management forever. Basically, long story short. So there’s a girl group of four girls and they’re four avatars, and they even go on tour separately Amazing Avatar’s number eight, don’t have contracts to breach. Yeah, that is metaverse. They go on tour and you’re looking at the hologram. I was like, wow, people pay money for that. That’s amazing.
Mirko:
41:06
Okay.
Thi:
41:08
And then the fan base changes right. I learned from my daughter Vocaloid. You know how can you sing songs about suicide? Well, how about an AI voice? because that voice is allowed to do that. And then you have the rigging on YouTube and the VTubers and stuff like that. I think it’s amazing. Is it a fact? Yeah, it was. But anyway, i think whatever new comes there curious, tested out I’m not talking about two minutes. That’s why the same thing business process management is was very sluggish. I mean, i am also myself a certified RS model. Back in the days I use things for many, many years. I sit in the room listening to Professor Dr Scher, when he was only a doctor And I was there and I’m listening to him And sometimes it seemed a little bit dry, but he was right And he’s still right. Not about the how and everything, but about the what and the why. I think the how is very, very interesting on how we can get there. But yeah, that’s my two cents. I was rambling again, but thanks for your patience on that one For sure.
Mirko:
42:14
It’s super inspiring, and normally I would now ask you, before we leave the aircraft right, we are already at the end of this episode, which we landed smoothly Is there anything else you would like to share with our listeners which we haven’t talked about yet?
Thi:
42:30
So Yeah, i mean, first of all, i really thank you for taking the time. I think we often forget that it is still the ultimate and most precious thing there is, and it’s also the most humbling one, because as long as we don’t have time machines, it is as it is, and Elon Musk or whoever were in Buffett, they also only have 24 hours, so maybe that does not that fact does not make us the richest person in the world, but the wealthiest nonetheless. And some people say you know you only live once. That’s also BS, right. You live every day, you just die once. So I think really, we make the most of every day on that. Yeah, so that’s right. You know, focus on time. There’s nothing you can reverse into. I mean, we have time machines, so that’s a good thing. That’s why I also have jobs, but I think this is really the ultimate, most precious thing It’s time.
Mirko:
43:33
Yeah, super cool, so inspiring. Thanks a lot for all your thoughts, tee. Just final question How would you describe your flight experience with just three words.
Thi:
43:45
I’m bad at math, but let’s do it again. Let’s do it again.
Mirko:
43:51
Yeah, perfect, cool. Thank you so much for being my guest on New Process Podcast. I’m looking forward to what is coming up next. So, and maybe I’m going to contact you as well to ask for three individual personalized recommendations. So thank you so much.
Thi:
44:06
Have a great day. Everyone is welcome, you too, thank you.
Mirko:
44:16
Wow, what a broad range of insights. I really appreciate Thi’s human centric, process oriented and finance related view on business process management. So I think what sticks most with me is his approach to listening, first asking better questions and then talking as the last activity, and therefore I really love his tool recommendation to use our two ears and our mouse, but first listen and then talk. So, and as he offered, if you’d like to try it out, feel free to contact him. He will then listen and afterwards give his personalized recommendations to you. I’ll put the link to his LinkedIn profile into the show notes so it’s easy for you to contact him. That’s it for today. In the next episode I’m going to recap the learnings from my search for a human centric BPM tool. So if you are interested in finding out if I really found a human centric BPM tool or not, then stay tuned. Otherwise, other interesting episodes are coming up expert interviews and maybe also some more tool interviews afterwards. But for now, thank you much for listening. Have a great day. Bye, bye and auf Wiedersehen. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please leave a comment and I’ll see you in the next episode. I’ll see you in the next episode. Bye, bye.
