How PASS supports a human-centric BPM approach with Christoph Piller

How PASS supports a human-centric BPM approach with Christoph Piller

#038 The “Process Wizard” about S-BPM, PASS, Hyperautomation and AI topics.

In this episode, I’m talking to the “Process Wizard” Christoph Piller.

He gives us some insights into the S-BPM approach and the PASS notation. We’ll talk about his favorite PASS project and how to get people excited about S-BPM and PASS.

Christoph also explains what to make of his LinkedIn description “Hyperautomation Evangelist” and “Process Sprint Knight” and shares his thoughts on BPM and AI.

Today’s Guest:

Christoph Piller

Christoph is a freelance expert and innovator with a focus on BPM, hyper-automation, the Process Sprint method and AI as BPM assistant. He is also known as the “Process Wizard” and invites experts to join him on his vodcast “On a Melange with the Process Wizard” for intensive process talks.

Before, he worked as a Hyper-Automation Evangelist at Bitpanda, as Senior Business Process Consultant at Viessmann (specifically for HR) as well as created the Center of Process Excellence & Automation at Career Partner. Lately, he started working for Stadtwerke München as Senior Process Consultant.

Christoph lives in Denkendorf, Germany.

Personally, he loves to take care of his three (baby-) girls and to make his wife crazy together with them.

You’ll learn:

  • What the Subject-oriented BPM approach and PASS are
  • What PASS can do better than other notations such as BPMN 2.0 or UPN
  • What his favorite PASS project was and how to get people excited for this approach
  • What hyper-automation is and what a Process Sprint Knight does
  • We’ll also talk about his thoughts on BPM and AI as well as his top tips to get to a more human-centric BPM approach.


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Please note that the transcript was generated automatically and only slightly adjusted. It does not claim to be a perfect transcription.


Yeah, welcome to episode 38 of the New Process Podcast. Today we’re going to find out what, past the parallel activity specification sheen another notation is and how it supports a human-centric BPM approach. Therefore, I’m talking to Christoph Piller. Christoph is a freelance expert and innovator with a focus on BPM, hyper automation, the process sprint method and S BPM assistant. He is also known as the process wizard and he invites experts to join him on his podcast on a melange with the process wizard for intensive process talks. Before that, he worked as a hyper automation evangelist at Bitpanda, a senior business process consultant at Fismann, specifically for HR, as well as he created the Center of Process Excellence and Automation at Career Partner. Lately, he started working for Stadtwerke München as a senior process consultant. He holds a master of science in engineering from University of Applied Science. Technikom Vienna, published his own book and is still working on scientific papers from time to time.


Christoph lives in Denkendorf, next to Ingolstadt, germany. Personally, he loves to take care of his three baby girls and to make his wife crazy together with them. He’s sports enthusiast and loves to read books. He told me that he managed to read 200 books in 2021. Ah, honestly, I haven’t even read one single book since that year. So in the interview you’ll learn what the subject-oriented BPM approach and PASS are, what PASS can do better than other notations such as BPMN2.0 or UPN, what his favorite PASS project was and how to get people excited for this approach. We also talk about what hyper automation is and what a process sprint night is doing, and we’re going to talk about his thoughts on BPM and AI, as well as his top tips to get to a more human-centric BPM approach. So a lot of things on the list today. Enjoy the interview with Christoph Piller. And now let’s start the reading process.


Yeah, welcome to the new process podcast, Christoph. It’s great to have you here as my , because I was already your  in your video podcast while I was at the Baltic Sea, sitting in the Volkswagen bully and having a cold Coke, and you had a melange on the other side, I think. So, Christoph, it’s great to have the process wizard in the new process podcast. So welcome, Christoph.


Hello Mirko. It’s also great for me to be in your podcast, so it’s a real pleasure for me being your  today, and I’m really looking forward to talking with you about human-centric business process management.


Yeah, yeah, definitely, me too, Me too. So then let’s dive right into the check-in first. What do you prefer in an aircraft Isle or window seat?


So actually it really depends. It’s not so simple for me to answer. So, first of all, when I’m flying with my kids, of course it’s the aisle seat, because my kids want to sit at the window. Yeah, and in general I really don’t care. Actually, usually, when I take short flights, I really enjoy sitting at the window seat because then I can look outside. When I’m taking longer flights, I prefer to sit on the aisle seat because I have to go to the toilet and I do not want to ask every time the person next to me to stand up please.


Yeah, that’s not very good. I just thought about evaluating all the answers of all my s, so after 30-something episodes I have a lot of answers on this question. Maybe we can make a case out of that for BPM enthusiasts, whatever the people are choosing here. But what is your favorite airport? I have two favorite airports actually, and they are very contrary to each other.


So the one is, of course, dubai. So I think everyone who has been there really loves this airport, because there you have everything and it’s so luxury, so it’s really enjoyable there. The other airport is the airport from Bhopal in India, so it’s almost in the center of India, I would say so a little bit north, but center of India and it’s a very old look. So the airport itself looks very new and is really stylish, but everything is kind of small. You still have to walk from the airport, so you really have to walk literally to the airplane and you don’t really see security things.


So it’s just a kind of bigger hall, so very contrary to Dubai. But this makes it much more enjoyable because it’s really simple, straightforward, you do not get distracted, that stuff.


OK, I’ve never been to India before. We are planning to visit Dubai next year, so my wife yesterday said I would like to go there. And OK, let’s see what we can do. So, very good, and what was the best process you have ever experienced?


So actually the best process I ever experienced was and I think also will be sometimes in the future the Amazon support process. So for B2C customers, Because I can remember the first time I waited for a book and it didn’t arrive and then they really have given me on the home page a very simple, step-by-step explanation what I have to do, what I have to look for, et cetera. And after I’ve done this and it was really simple, straightforward and after I’ve done this, I had still no solution. And then they gave me a phone number to call and I called there and everything was solved within I don’t know 45 seconds. Ok, it’s so enjoyable that the person on the other side of the phone was so nice, so kind to me, For me, the perfect customer support process ever. Ok, I mean, I don’t know how it looks in the background, yeah, but for me as a customer it felt amazing and I think that’s one of the most important points when it’s about processes?


Absolutely so. How would you describe your relationship to processes?


So processes is my business vocation kind of, and so it’s my absolute passion actually. So I love working in this area, I love working with process management, I love working together with people on process management projects. So I would say my relationship is a kind of soulmate relationship. So if processes would have one soul, it would definitely be my soulmate.


That’s super cool. Oh yeah, I’m quite similar to that, so I can feel you. That’s great and, as I already said before we started the recording, yesterday I changed the tires on my car and while doing that, I listened to one of my favorite podcasts what’s your Baseline podcast and that was a , and this  was you, and you were talking about subject-oriented business process management. Right, maybe you can briefly tell the people in a few seconds what that’s about, but I think if you have listened as a listener already to the what’s your Baseline episode, then this is the perfect follow-up. If you haven’t listened to the what’s your Baseline podcast before, maybe, christoph, can you give a very brief overview of what SBPM is about.


Of course. So in general, business process management, to say it very simple, you just look at what is done and how we can do it better or more efficient and subject-oriented business process management is the business process management where we do not ask firstly what must be done, but rather who must do what. Okay, so we really start focusing on the who, on the subject, and not on the what, on the predicate, Because at the end of the day, as we talk with each other, we use the general sentence structure, which also consists first of the subject, then the predicate and then the object.


Yeah, Okay, and that’s super fascinating because when I’m doing process modeler trainings, I always talk about when you start mapping a process. There are two ways to start. The first way would be what’s the first activity, yeah, and then talk about the activities first. Or the second way would be what are the roles involved, so what are the subjects of the process? And that’s why I really love this approach to talk about the people in the end first, and then about the activities a little bit later. And today we want to deep dive into PASS. So, for those who haven’t heard about PASS before, what first? What does this abbreviation P-A-S-S stand for?


PASS stands for Parallel Activity Specification Scheme. Why? Because when the founders of S-BPM thought about the name for the modeling notation because PASS is the modeling notation of S-BPM they said, okay, we have a scheme here with which we specify activity speech-run parallel. So they said, okay, just let’s turn it around, because then we would have a really cool abbreviation.


That’s perfect, and I have some other interpretations of the abbreviation, but how does it look like? What does it look?


like we have. I think the most important thing is that pass consists of two diagrams actually. So we have the SID and SBD. The SID stands for Subject Interaction Diagram and the SBD stands for Subject Behavior Diagram. So first of all and that’s what you mentioned some minutes before first of all we look at the subjects. We define the subjects and how they interact with each other. So which subject is sending which data, which information, which messages to which subject, how they communicate kind of with each other.


And with this we already have a very good overview, especially when it’s about very big processes, about the entire way of data, information, messages and of the subjects which are important in to run this process. And so we can go into one of those subjects and then look at their behavior. So the real steps they have to do, and they kind of must be connected to each other, so it’s not something like, okay, I’m modeling only an SID or only an SBD. It’s really important that they are tightly connected to each other, because when I’m modeling the subject, subject behavior or the behavior of a subject, I must know, okay, which messages is the subject sending to which subject to which other subject? And this is what we can see in the SID. That’s why they are really tightly connected to each other.


Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, and is the subject more or less something like a role, or is it comparable to a role which we know from BPM2.0, for example?


Yeah, it’s kind of role, so you can compare it to a swim lane and a pool when we think about BPM2.0. So it’s a part of the process which is doing specific steps, specific tasks to bring the process further. And this subject and that’s the interesting thing about it so this subject must not be a person. It also can be a software automation whatsoever. So, theoretically, as soon as something is doing specific process steps and receiving input, sending output, then we have a defined subject.


Okay, and then you have, per subject, just one process model one. How is it called for?


the subject yes, one behavior description, but you can also say process model.


Okay, I think we have to link picture of this description into the show notes to make it easier.


I will send you something.


That’s very good, okay, but there are no swim lanes. Right, there are no swim lanes Because there’s just one subject.


So theoretically, because you only can click into one subject and see just their behavior. But I mean for analysis phases. For the analysis phase you can just put all subject behaviors next to each other and make a kind of swim lanes for it.


Okay, okay.


So that’s what I’m, for example, doing sometimes when it’s about process analysis, of course.


Yeah, I’m really looking forward to share a picture of how this looks like with the community to make it easier to understand. But who invented Paz?


Paz was invented by Albert Fleischmann, so very, very originally by Albert Fleischmann 1994. And it’s really awesome actually, because Albert Fleischmann was also my supervisor. Is it called supervisor for my master thesis? Yeah, cool, exactly. And so he kind of started with it and then with the years, more and more business process management experts get really caught with this topic and helped him to further develop it.


Okay, that’s interesting. I never heard about that before. We both met a few months ago, so that’s super interesting to learn more. And comparing Paz to other notations, what can Paz do better than BPMN 2.0? Or I lately talked about UPN. Here I talked to Walter Bril and he introduced how UPN looks like. So what are the differences and what can Paz do better Actually?


now it gets a little bit tricky because, to be honest, it depends. It depends on what we want to achieve with this process model, because we will talk about the limitations later. What can it actually do better? So the main advantage and I think you already kind of experienced this with your approach of business process management, paz is kind of mimicking our standard sentence semantics, so we’re focusing first on the subject, then on the predicate, then on the object, and this causes Paz to be understandable very, very quickly.


So there was some research done in the past. Two groups were educated with, the one group with Paz, the other group with BPMN 2.0. And they get I don’t know, I think one hour intro to the languages and then they had to model a process and the people who had to model with Paz had much better results semantically and synthetically. So it was, the usage of the language was more correct as well as the process they modeled was more correct, and that’s something I have experienced myself in projects and also colleagues of mine who are using it have experienced this. So it’s much better understandable and what is quite interesting, as we focusing only at the beginning at the subject interaction diagram, so who are the participants kind of the process, and when we have the subject interaction diagram, we can go to every subject, to every department, to every role alone and ask them okay, what are you doing? Which means we have the much better possibility to model kind of distributed, decentralized, in parallel, and we do not have to bring all the stakeholders every time on the very same table.


Okay, that’s interesting. I just thought about that how I did it in the past, talking to people at different meetings only to catch their view onto the process, and I was just wondering how do you bring it then all together, the different views?


So I mean you have the subject interaction diagram. Yeah, you have to sit together one time. So okay, together one time, because you need the subject interaction diagram to know who is communicating, sending, receiving which and when. You know how the data, the information, the messages are flowing, how they interact with each other. You can then talk with each other separately. Okay, and just have to make sure that you have included in the behavior diagram the sending of messages, information, and the receiving, the respective receiving.


Yeah, so the interaction diagram is the bigger picture, and then we have the behavior diagrams for the activities of the subjects. Okay, perfect. You already said that there are also limitations. What are the limitations of paths?


Well, when we have very I would not say simple processes, but very linear processes, when we so one of the typical process would be, I don’t know, registration of my holidays, of my vacations, or business travel request, which is kind of straightforward nowadays, I would say, then you would need extra effort because you would create a subject interaction diagram with one or two subjects only and then sit together with them separately and create the behavior, and then you can say, okay, I mean, I even can draw just a very simple flow chart kind of, and would get the very same information. So, which means okay, when it’s a very simple process, why needing this extra effort? But I would say okay, then I even would think about okay, why modeling it very complex with business, bpm and 2.0, to be fair. The other thing is and that’s quite a shame actually so there’s no big tool behind it. So there’s no no signal view or BIC tool or I graphics or adonis or areas or so which would support. So with where we were, you can model with paths.


Okay, not even Iris. We have to talk to JM because he told me when, I talked to him about Aris, that they do everything they can do it all.


You can be sure we talk to JM as well as Roland.


Okay so, but is there how do I do it Just on paper, or is there a tool available?


No, now it’s getting interesting because that’s why there’s a much bigger shame. So, first of all, there are shapes in Visio which I have, which were created by a friend of mine who is, who is Mathis Elsamann, who is lecturer at the Karlsruhe University, and he has created these shapes for Visio, which is already really cool because he even included a process simulation so you even can calculate how long does this process take, where the bottlenecks are and that stuff, which is awesome actually. So with the OMG, it’s the OMG group, isn’t it? Yeah, so it’s even kind of recognized with them. So there is in GitHub all the static and what is it called? Dynamic information about this process. Okay, it’s kind of saved and stored. So it would be very, very simple when a company is saying, okay, we want to make our tool possible to use, pass, they just would have to take the GitHub reps thing and can kind of immediately, kind of immediately translate it. So actually really cool, because the groundwork, the base is the fundamental stuff is already done and ready to use Okay.


Yeah, cool, that’s interesting. And to be a little more practical there, what was your favorite past project? Where did you use it and how did it feel?


So they’re actually kind of two not only kind of two, but actual two. The first one and that’s quite a long time, because some years ago it’s already six, seven, seven years ago I worked for a startup in Munich, napis, and there we build up the technical account management, and the technical account management also has done, at this time at least, the pilot projects for new customers. So new customers get a kind of project for free, just so that they see how everything works, and every technical account manager of us has done this pilot project very differently. So we said, okay, we cannot do this, because I hope, as everyone knows, quality does not only mean do it very good, but also do it every time with the very same result. So I said, okay, I will model, analyze the process, how we’re doing it, and then this process model I will even use to digitize our entire project documentation, kind of, because shortly before we got some licenses from Atlassia and Chira, so we also wanted to implement using, for those pilot projects, chira tickets and that stuff, and so I used PASS for the entire analysis and modeling of the process and only with this process model I could digitize our entire pilot project process and I could do this alone within one day and even digitize it. I have kind of put it into Chira so that we have a ticket and the ticket with the correct states and further transitions and with the correct documentation of time, costs etc. That was really, really cool and I was really proud of it, first one, second one, and I think we will talk a little bit about it later.


This is not only about PASS, but also about the mysterious process print week. So some years ago I worked for a company where we said we want to improve, and I especially, automate the creation of employee contracts, because this was at this time this was done completely manually in this company. So we have done this within one week actually. And as process analysis and modeling language I’ve used PASS and it was super helpful because I recognized first of all, immediately that the main job was done by only one subject, which meant, okay, we really can focus on this subject. But we also have seen, okay, from whom the input is coming and to whom the output is going. And then we have known, okay, what do we have to focus on improving the input data kind of, and what do we have to do that the outcome data is much better within one week, within one week.


Okay, yeah, that’s super cool. And how can I get started with PASS? Is there a tutorial, a course, a book?


It’s really simple and I think, to be honest, I think that’s for everything you want, when you want to get started with something new, so just start. What I can promise you the most easiest way is just contact me for half an hour to an hour maximum, and after this you will have the standard knowledge to start modeling with PASS, because it’s a super straightforward language. There are in total five different shapes, not more, so only five different shapes to know. I mean, you also can contact, for example, mattes Elstermann, my colleague, my friend, because he’s also super, super eager to share his knowledge. But that would be the most easiest way. And after that, I mean you can, of course, follow me on LinkedIn because I put out some knowledge of PASS, but there you can check.


Also, there’s some very good literature about subject-oriented business process management, and I also will share because we have our own club. So how is it called Wait a second A club who is not there to gain money. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but this is just a club without the reasoning of making money, and it’s the club of the SPPM guys. So also, I think it was even founded by Albert Fleischmann, and we have our own homepage where a lot of information is about subject-oriented business process management and PASS, of course.


Okay, so that’s an official association. Or is it just a group of people? Yeah, so it’s an official association, okay.


Yeah, isn’t it called NTO? Yeah?


yeah, yeah, it’s nonprofit, so kind of a nonprofit organization, yeah, yeah, yeah.


Yeah, a nonprofit organization. That’s what I was looking for, non-profit organization kind of Exactly.


Okay, cool. So you already said the people listening to what we are talking about right now can easily reach out to you via LinkedIn, right, that’s your preferred inbox channel, right, correct? Yeah, okay, perfect. So we can already take off this question, which is normally one of my last questions how can the people read you? So it’s LinkedIn, perfect. And what would you recommend to me or give to me as arguments when I want to convince people, to get them excited about PASS? What are the three major arguments there?


The very very first major argument is that it’s based on our natural language. So when we want to talk with people, we are using subject predicate, object. So then, why we are using predicate, or sometimes object, first with process modeling in the process modeling notation, when we want to make the process understandable for people, does it make sense to also use subject predicate object, because then kind of everyone is able to understand it very, very quickly. The other thing is that it’s a challenge kind of to and I mean now the challenge for all the people in your company to start with process management, to take over the role of process owner, to think about the own process, is much lower, because suddenly the tool with which I can model processes and analyze process is much easier to learn. It’s much better understandable. And it’s not this. Or I have a big BPM end 2.0 model in front of me and I think, oh, what’s going on here? This is the process I’m doing. I do not understand anything, kind of.


Okay, Cool. Thanks for these arguments there. I think that’s enough about past for now. Besides, you are calling yourself a process wizard. As I already said, your LinkedIn profile also introduces you as hyper automation evangelist, process sprint night and AI enthusiast. So I already talked about process automation in the previous episode with Nico Bitzer. But what the fuck is hyper automation?


So the proper definition is hyper automation looks at the automation of business processes from a holistic perspective. Okay, what does this mean? So, let’s say, 10 years ago, when we thought about process automation, we immediately had RPA in mind, or probably had RPA in mind, and maybe, okay, some hard coding automation, some hard coded automation, and that was the kind of okay, that’s process automation. But with this rise of the no-code, no-code technologies, we not only have RPA anymore, we have process mining, which is super helpful for process analysis and process monitoring, for example. We have the entire topic of cloud automation, which is much more stable as RPA, so as the pure RPA automation.


So we have AI, which is really, really helpful for the topic of process automation. So we have an entire new area of process automation as open and what we have to be honest with each other, there is not this one tool which fulfills all our needs, which means those tools have to interact with each other to be used very effectively actually, and high-file automation does mean exactly this. So how can I use all those process automation tools together in order to have the very, very best result? Okay, so it’s a very holistic. Does this make sense? Is this more understandable?


Yeah, sure, I read that term several times, but I was always wondering what that really is about. So it’s a holistic process automation approach, right?


Exactly and I also thought about I have to have one password in my LinkedIn profile.


Just one. What about process sprint night? What are you doing as a process sprint night?


That’s a really awesome thing. Do you know the design sprint week? Yes, exactly. So. It’s invented by Google, guru, so by JKnopp, and it’s a week where you can theoretically invent a product or actually solve a problem, including a prototype and customer. So a really test phase with real customers. And when I have read about it, I was totally blown away with this approach and I thought, okay, I have to do this for process improvement, slash automation projects. And I’ve done some courses, so design sprint courses. So I’m an actual certified design sprint master and I’ve used the knowledge from this to create the process sprint week and nowadays I try to use this process sprint week for my process improvement projects. So similar what I have done with this employee contract creation project.


Okay, cool and it’s awesome and I think that’s something which also you make really love with this. So it’s not about that. I have something within one week. It’s much more about. I’m spending one week together with the most important stakeholders, process participants, with the most important humans regarding this problem, and they really feel heard. They really contribute to creating the solution to solving this problem, and so, regarding change management, it’s awesome.


It’s so, so helpful. Yeah, yeah, and just by using this term to invite the people to this process, sprint and say, okay, we are coming together and we are doing something in just a few days and there will be a result, and let’s do it. That can be very motivating, I guess.


Yeah, totally.


Totally Okay, cool. For sure we could do a whole episode on this to deep dive into how really implement these projects. But there was another buzzword like AI enthusiast in your headline. You already mentioned AI when you talked about hyper automation. What are your predictions for the application of artificial intelligence in the area of business process management?


I have two predictions A short term and a long term prediction. My short term prediction is that AI will be used as an assistant. So as an assistant for the business process manager, as, for example, together, for example, more knowledge about the process. So a typical assistant. What is AI currently already doing in all the other areas? Because AI is mainly an assistant currently and they have good news, maybe probably I’m working on a scientific paper where I’m looking into the perfect master prompt to get a proper benchmark process of the process you’re currently analyzing. So I’m actually I’m kind of surprised that it is not used a lot currently, so that only few people, few business process manager, using it that way. But I’m pretty sure, in I don’t know half a year, a year late, at the latest one year, ai will be used for business process manager exactly for this, for such things to gather more knowledge about the process.


Because that’s awesome because you do not have to interview your network to get info about a process. Actually, in general, in long term, I think modeling of process will be done by AI. So I think there will there will be no need anymore for process modelers, I think. Also the automation of a process so when the process is modeled, the automation of process steps will be done almost entirely automatically. So there will be only two to three experts who are really looking into this. So it’s a kind of final quality check, I think.


And also the topic of forecasting. So when it’s about okay, how do we have to change our process, how do we have use the resources in the process, in the next few months will be predicted, or at least kind of suggestions will come from AI, which will be then investigated. So there, I think this will be the future of AI in the area of BPM, whereby BPM manager will be needed then to use the AI technology in a way that I nevertheless can create a USP. So I think all the support processes where you just so support process, you just want them to run as efficient as possible that you can save money with this process kind of, or in this process, with and in this process. So there you can say, okay, ai, tell me what to do and we will do it that way kind of. But for my core processes, where my USP kind of lies, they are a good BPM manager will use AI to create the best USP. You know what I mean.


Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah. I’m thinking into the same direction and I already thought about setting up a deep dive episode on this, especially this topic how AI will support BPM in the future and how this can be developed. I already talked about that with Benjamin Durant a few episodes ago and in the meantime, I learned a lot myself about chat, gpt and so on. I’m super curious to dive deeper into that topic, but not today. And, looking onto the calendar, on the date we are releasing this, at least we’re planning to go live on the 25th of October.


So this is week two after we announced the date for the new process conference, which will take place in Zeheim, which is south of Frankfurt in Germany, next year in April. It’s the 17th and 18th of April 2024. So you have to be there, we have to discuss this and we are not yet finished with the agenda, but in my opinion, this has to be on the agenda. So we have to dive deeper into that topic, not because it’s right now a bullshit bingo topic or buzzword AI, because it’s absolutely relevant for us PPM guys, I think, and this will be on the agenda for sure, and hopefully you will be there as well. So let’s see where we can go deeper into that topic.


So thank you for your predictions so far. So I’m doing a lot of research on how to get people excited about processes and how to get to a more human-centric BPM approach. With all your experience, what are your top three recommendations to get to a more human-centric BPM approach?


I think, first of all and now it gets quite interesting because I’m using now the steps I went through to also get to a much more human-centric BPM approach, because and that’s something we talked a lot about, mia Quinn that’s also think how we kind of connected the human-centric BPM approach and the subject or, in the business process management approach, they are very, very similar. So I also love, of course, the human-centric approach and I think that the very first thing, which is so important, which is then really, really exciting, we have to leave our comfort zone in which we’re currently sitting and really start dealing with human-centric topics, and this in very general. So we have to look into design thinking. Design thinking is amazing when it’s about human-centric stuff. Actually, we have to think about leadership topics from Simon Sinek, for example, or read some books from John Strelakie, and they write awesome stuff, and so this is the kind of first step to go outside our comfort zone and get an OK, what does human-centric actually mean?


When we have done this, we have to get to know in very general, human-centric BPM approaches. So like your stuff, the new processes, or read some books about SPPM, so just to get the feeling OK, I know about the standard BPM approach. But what is it about new processes, what is it about SPPM? And how does this connect to the human-centric topics in general, like design thinking, leadership techniques, et cetera? And when I have done this, then it just can start modeling processes and I immediately recognize OK, it’s really not about just drawing what is step one, what is step two, what is step three, et cetera, but it’s really about OK, hey, who is doing this, from whom I get messages, to whom I have to send my output, that stuff. And I think that in my opinion, that is the most correct and most exciting approach to this topic.


OK, cool. Thank you for your recommendation there. We already talked about how the BPM can read you, so your favorite inbox channel is linked in.


Yeah, but just to be very complete, I’m also on Twitter as process wizard On X, sorry. On X. Sorry. Ok, I’m also on TikTok as process wizard, Really doing process dance Kinda kinda OK, OK and of course on YouTube, because my video podcast runs on YouTube.


Yeah, ok, that’s good. I think I have to look on TikTok for the process wizard now. No, that’s good. Oh, yeah, yeah, perfect. So we already landed our aircraft. And before we leave the aircraft I’m always asking my s which topic tool expert you would recommend to me to have a closer look at to get new ideas on how to rethink processes.


OK, first of all, of course, you.


Mirko, ok, I talk a lot to myself. Yeah, that’s good. Makes sense, doesn’t?


it. Then you also can kind of contact Mattes Elstermann what I mentioned before because he’s also an awesome guy and knows. So I have the feeling he knows much more about SBPM and past than me. What I also would recommend is actually looking into the entire topic of design thinking, because there are so many methods which really focusing on the human-centric part, so it’s really awesome actually. And, of course, look at SBPM. So books about SBPM, of course.


Yeah, perfect. I’m going to put the recommendations into the show notes so it’s easier to look that up and let’s see what kinds of follow-up interviews we can build out of this. Perfect, Before we leave the aircraft. Is there anything else you would like to share with our listeners?


The one thing I really want to share is that, mirko, I’m really really thankful that you are giving me the chance to present my process love topic, sppm and pass here in your podcast. This really means a lot to me and that’s the one thing I still want to share, Cool.


Thank you so much, Christoph. It was great to have you as a  here, but still the final question how would you describe your flight experience with just three words?


Awesome Process experience.


Yes, oh, I love it, lieben wir. It was a real pleasure talking to you, learning more about past subject-oriented process management and way more, and I’m really looking forward meeting you in person, latest next year at the new process conference in Zeyheim, and maybe already before somewhere else. So thank you so much for being my . Have a great day.


Bye-bye. Thank you very much. It was also a pleasure for me. Have a nice day. See you around, bye, bye.


Yeah, really fascinating. Honestly, I never heard about SPPM and pass before I met Krithov, but it’s super interesting. As I said in my modeler trainings, I always talk about these two ways on how to start modeling. So asking the people first for the activities so what are you doing, what are the activities, what comes first, and then how do you interact, and so on or asking for the roles. So, instead of asking for activities, asking for roles first what are the roles involved in this process and then putting these into the swimlines. But I was not really aware of the power of asking for the roles, the subjects first. So I really love the human centric focus of pass. Just as a reminder, pass stands for parallel activity specification sheen, and it consists of two types of diagrams, I think.


Without examples this is really abstract. So that’s why we’re going to put some examples into the show notes. You definitely have to look it up, but just to recap that there are two different types. The first type of diagram is the so-called subject interaction diagram, sid. This is just a visualization of the actors, so the subjects, and their means of interaction in form of messages. So you can imagine you have a picture where you have a box for one actor and the box for another. There is then an arrow in between which visualizes the message which flows from one actor or from one subject to the other. So that’s the subject interaction diagram. And then for each and every subject there is the so-called subject behavior diagram, bd, which describes the individual behavior of that specific subject, so describing the internal actions as well as the order and conditions of sending and receiving messages. So it definitely makes sense.


You just have to look at the example which we link into the show notes. That will make it easier to understand. You’ll find it super fascinating this approach. If you want to get to the show notes, just go to newproslabcom. In the next episode we’ll have a deep dive into a practical application of process automation. I think probably one of the largest project teams in a German company which is working on process automation in that company. This is going to be really fascinating for newbies as well as for experienced BPM enthusiasts. So don’t miss the next episode. But for now, thank you very much for listening. Have a great day, bye-bye and auf Wiedersehen. Thank you very much, bye-bye.



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