Gamification ideas to inspire people for processes with Jasmin Karatas
#016: Jasmin explains how to develop gamifications. – This opens up a whole new world for me to inspire people for processes!
In this episode, I’m speaking with Jasmin Karatas to learn more about how gamification can be applied to inspire people for processes.
I learned from Jasmin that gamification has a lot to do with processes and I see a huge potential in using gamifications for example for process trainings to get people excited about processes.
Jasmin explains very clearly how gamifications are developed and gives many good examples. In the recap, I summarize my learnings for you, so you can leave the episode with a lot of inspiration and practical tips. Have fun listening!
And if you are interested in rethinking the pizza restaurant game, feel free to send me an email with the subject “I love pizza” to Mirko@NewProcessLab.com.
Jasmin describes herself as a Gamification Advisor & Consultant, UX-Expert, Speaker, and Content Creator who helps you to create emotional and gamified experiences your audience can’t get enough.
She is a Solopreneur, located in Zürich, Switzerland. She is working as Gamification Advisor & Strategic Designer since 2020. Before this, she worked for Accenture and other companies as Innovation Manager, Gamification Consultant and Strategic Designer.
She also hosts her own JayKays Twitch channel where she is sharing tips & tricks on gamification to make the world a little bit more playful.
- What a Gamification Advisor is doing
- How to proceed to develop gamifications
- How to apply gamification methods to push your process trainings to the next level
- How to use gamification to inspire people for processes
- How Twitch can be used to share ideas and to inspire people for processes
- What Jasmin’s top 3 recommendations are to rethink processes
- Jasmin Karatas on LinkedIn
- Jasmin’s website
- JayKays Twitch channel. Jasmin is live every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday from 8:00am to 12:00pm CET
- Links to all the other projects of Jasmin
- Reality Is Broken by Jane McGonigal
- David Bundi on LinkedIn
- My recap article with the key learnings of the interview
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Please note that the transcript was generated automatically and only slightly adjusted. It does not claim to be a perfect transcription.
Jasmin (00:00:00) – Being in that liminal space, we can experiment and really take on some clothing or maquette first. It sounds really, really odd because people in in business usually, and that’s what I experience first think, ugh, again, really, I need to wear that. And after five minutes, and I say literally, we had CEOs mocking the dead Rob with Post-Its on their Eyes with an ex and was like on the floor, like me making the the Dead Seal.
Mirko (00:00:50) – Yeah. Welcome to episode 16 of the New Process podcast, where we are going to explore how to apply gamification ideas to inspire people for processes. Today’s guest is Jasmine Karatas. Jasmine describes herself as a gamification advisor and consultant UX expert, speaker and content creator who helps you to create emotional and gamified experiences your audience can’t get enough of. So she’s a solopreneur located in Zurich, Switzerland. She’s working as gamification and strategic designer since 2020. Before this, she worked for Accenture and other companies as innovation manager, gamification consultant and strategic designer. And Jasmine also hosts her own JayKays Twitch channel where she’s sharing tips and tricks on gamification to make the world a little bit more playful. Yeah. Great. So what’s in for you? As you already heard in the opening, it’s not going to be a session where we are talking about these boring role plays you might know from these old school trainings, and I really hated playing role plays in trainings in the past.
Mirko (00:02:05) – So the worst were the ones which were also then captured on camera and then afterwards talked about, ah, damn. But, uh, her ideas on how to gamify a learning process based on role play games completely opened up a new creative space for myself and on thinking how to do this. So in this episode, you will learn how to proceed to develop gamifications, how to apply gamification methods to push your process to the next level, how to use Gamifications to inspire people for processes. And Jasmine also brings in some brilliant ideas to rethink processes, and she introduces us to the world of Twitch, which I personally haven’t explored so far.
Speaker 1 (00:02:54) – And now let’s start the rethink processes.
Mirko (00:02:59) – Yeah, great to have you here, Jasmine. Welcome to the New Process podcast. We’ve already been talking about some gamification ideas a few episodes ago, and I thought I have to deep dive more and more into this topic. And, uh, I’m so happy, excited to have you here today. So welcome Jasmine.
Jasmin (00:03:17) – Thank you having me .
Mirko (00:03:20) – Yeah. Great. So let’s start right into the check-in and, um, let me ask, what do you prefer in an aircraft aisle or window? Seed.
Jasmin (00:03:29) – Window, for sure.
Mirko (00:03:30) – Yeah. Why?
Jasmin (00:03:32) – Um, because I love to see the outside, um, especially when it’s dark or night because I can see down the lights. But I as well love when you fly over Zurich. Um, you can see the lakes and the stuff, and I can see where I am I’m living. So that’s kind of nice. And I love how the landscape is changing, so that’s the reason why I love to see that, the window.
Mirko (00:03:54) – Yeah, that’s, that’s cool. That’s very nice. I I also love flying into Zurich as well. That’s, that’s great. I, I think I haven’t done that at night. It was always in the morning, but, uh, maybe next time. Let’s, that’s good. And what is your favorite airport?
Jasmin (00:04:10) – Um, I think Seig as well, but I like Frankfurt as well have to say. Yeah, I have to say I hated them at the beginning, to be honest, , because Seig is kind of very strange to find your way around, but they are very, very fast. So I like it. And it’s very small to compare to Frankfurt, but Frankfurt is, uh, the one I flew most from. And so I know kind of a lot around there. So I like that one kind of very much because it’s like my home base or it was a long time at home base, and it’s not a nice airport to say, but it’s a functional one as well as the S one, so, um, and they fly everywhere. I mean, these are the hubs in, in Europe, so especially Frankfurt is so you can go from there everywhere in the world.
Mirko (00:05:04) – Yeah, that’s true. I I have been living in Frankfurt for a while and I really love to go to the airport and just fly everywhere I want to fly to now from Hamburg. It’s hard always. You have to shuttle first to Munich, Frankfurt Zurich, uh, to get to the whole world. Yeah, that’s true. Cool. And, um, let’s get a little bit closer to the topic of processes. So what was the best process you’ve ever experienced?
Jasmin (00:05:31) – Um, here I have to ask a question because is it a analog process or a digital one? Because I have to say they differ a lot.
Mirko (00:05:40) – Okay. Uh, so whatever you like, um, can be analog as well.
Jasmin (00:05:45) – Um, so for the, to be honest, like the analog ones, I really love to have, if I prefer to go to the checkout, the normal checkout to the cashier, I like if they have a smile. So if they can give you, you know, like what you wanted to have and that stuff. So it’s very easy and lean to go through. And if you have a smiling person, I really, I really love to go there, especially when you’re lin in Lindley, um, where, you know, like you, you’re getting this very keen, um, very nice people talking to you in Switzerland. So I love that kind of analog. Usually I prefer to have a non-person checkout because it’s faster and if I just have to buy stuff, it’s easier and lean. Um, so it’s a mixed, uh, and I really love the micro process of checkout. So for me that’s very, very lean.
Jasmin (00:06:39) – Um, how does my every day Yeah. Ah, the, like it’s the e-commerce. I can buy my groceries really, really fast and it gives me a lot of my recommendations, what I bought last week. Okay. And it’s very, very, very convenient, very lean. Um, it’s kind of if you have problems, they’re reachable and so on and so forth, and you get tracks a lot of the information, what comes when and so on and so forth. And if it comes to, um, uh, literally to business processes, like if you are in on the employee side or so on, um, um, I really, what I like there, um, and I experience as well is if you have like a coffee together where you can experience, um, recruitments or it wasn’t was in my former job a little bit different because, um, it’s not like a official kind of hiring process, but you get a little bit of information with colleagues up front, you get to know the feeling of the, of the bureau of the, of the office, and then you can, um, you know, like, look, if you really wanted to apply for a job, um, because that makes it a little bit more familiar or a little bit more, you know, like understandable and the feeling is different.
Jasmin (00:08:02) – And, um, then you have a normal application process afterwards and you are, um, it’s, it’s a little bit different because you already have a personal contact, especially if you are, um, um, hired for a manager position or something like that. I prefer to have such hiring processes, which makes it a little bit more personal rather than you’re just a number.
Mirko (00:08:24) – Yeah. That’s, that’s cool. Uh, I wanted nearly to say human centricity there in the process. Yeah,
Jasmin (00:08:31) – It is, to be honest. Yeah.
Mirko (00:08:33) – Cool. So with regards to processes, how would you describe your relationship to processes?
Jasmin (00:08:39) – Um, actually I design processes . Yeah. A lot of times. So, um, being it, uh, user experience, which are actually processed, like how you’re coming from , any kind of employee branding or checkout or whatever it is, right? E-commerce, um, or other websites, you always design a process, um, being it with user, uh, experience being it with gamification or, um, building the bridge between analog and digital. So a hybrid kind of process. So actually I’m, I’m a designer of that, so my relationship is usually I have a good one, but to be honest, um, it’s a little bit on you. You know, like, it’s always like, do you like it or do you hate it? It’s, it depends really on as well how the technology behind a lot of processes enables you to, so to say, because that’s sometimes key in our world. And if, uh, the technology is not ready, you have a shitty process.
Jasmin (00:09:39) – And if you need to digitalize this shitty process, it’s still a shitty process. And then nothing really helps because you can throw gamification on it or you can throw, you can try to throw UX on it, but if the technology is not ready and you are not able to trigger at right point the right experience, you are lost. And so, and that is when you call me to make it different right. To convince clients to make it a little bit different. But there’s always a way around. But yeah, I think processes are important and we need to understand that processes enable a lot of, uh, of who we are and what we do.
Mirko (00:10:18) – Yeah. Okay. Cool. Yeah. Great. We already reached the flight level and can dive right into it now. So, uh, as I already said, you are working as a gamification advisor and strategic designer. Yeah. What are you doing in this role?
Jasmin (00:10:33) – So I explained a little bit already, a little bit upfront, I touched up on it. So, um, either I design, um, strategically the processes or products. So, um, both sides, digital product and processes are very kind, very close together mm-hmm. . Um, because with a digital product, you design the process to be, kind of depends on the product to be frank, but Yeah. Um, and in the gamification part, um, I try to leverage the power of, uh, uh, science and psychology behind, um, games, like literally digital games and bring that into, um, employee branding, learning processes, checkout processes or so on and so forth. Um, either make it more fun in prs or, um, making it more motivational or just literally more, I, I call it instead of human-centric value based, because for me, that’s a difference. And bring more emotions into, into the process itself and try to combine it with my last experience of user experience in general.
Mirko (00:11:46) – Okay. Cool. That’s super interesting. And what would you say, what was your favorite gamification project you have been working on? Just to give an example,
Jasmin (00:11:55) – I think one of my, um, really, or the ones I love the most are the escape games I did. So you’re building a process of learning, so to say, but completely different. It’s a analog, one’s not completely digital. And, um, to be honest, kind, it’s a game. So you really design the process of learning into the product, which is then escape game later, um, and building that and bring that together with the, uh, middle level of the, uh, learner’s journey or employee journey, um, which has different kind of, uh, segments, not only just the game escape game, but bring that together with what they really need to learn on a functional basis and so on and so forth. And open them up for, uh, the real hard learnings later on so that they’re inspired and more open, fresh minded and so on and so forth. And the fun part here is that you always have a laugh on the face or the people, you know, like maybe sometimes they’re looking cringey because they want to understand what’s behind that, but at least they have, uh, the kind of click moment and people love to know more, and that’s very important for me.
Mirko (00:13:10) – Okay. That’s, that is super interesting. And, uh, can, can you give a more detailed example how of how a game like this looks like? Just because I’m really Oh,
Jasmin (00:13:21) – Yeah, yeah, for sure. . Um, the thing is usually, uh, what we do is, um, we talk to the clients, um, and we ask them, okay, what are the learning nuggets, for example? So when we have, um, for instance, something like, um, collaboration or agile, because a lot of people or companies now need to learn agile, the agile way of working together, um, we build a escape game in which are riddles of, um, um, agile development kind of way. But you frize them into, um, for instance, that you need to have snippets of code, and then they need to find a codes together and fidget them so that they are looking like a user story so that they’re standing I as, and then they need to find the, the right, right, uh, role to the description and so on and so forth. Um, and then it looks really like you have a lot of different piece of papers in front of you because there’s no digital, it’s analog workshop and then in really need to go from one riddle to the next and so on and so forth.
Jasmin (00:14:23) – But the fun part of this was, um, especially that the teams, because we played it with five teams and there was a five digit code you need to solve. But the thing was that some hints of the, of the groups were on the other team. So at a certain point they needed to understand that they need to collaborate to be able to finish the escape crew room altogether. And in agile it’s the same because in agile, if you don’t collaborate with, uh, legal, or if you don’t ate with, um, the tech guys or with the Yx guys, you’re lost because the product doesn’t get ready and you’re not finished. And so they understand that they need to break the silos down, and that may, uh, they need to collaborate instead to fight against each other. And, um, that is most of the time, uh, a big key or key term in a, in, in a way how they think. So that is literally a little bit how it could look like mm-hmm. , but it’s really customized. But yeah, we use the same kind of mechanics, but riddles are different. Mm-hmm. .
Mirko (00:15:23) – Okay. I, I’m already brainstorming in my head how to apply that to process, but I have to wait just seconds for that before we try to apply that more to processes. Um, how, how do you proceed to develop gamifications like this?
Jasmin (00:15:39) – Um, gamification itself is kind of a process because you not really can gamify a product in that section. You gamify always kind of a process because, um, and that is as well with goes with the escape game. Yes, it is a product, but you gamify on the way the learning journey, which is a process you gamify, um, with certain, um, uh, mechanics, for example, a checkout process or, um, e-commerce process where you know, okay, the user comes from there, he needs to click here, and so on and so forth. What you do here is really to, uh, use certain mechanics. Like for instance, we all know the Amazon, uh, reviews and the star marketing thing, like to rating options that would be, for instance, it’s, it’s a mechanic in ga out out of games, uh, which are used. I mean, the psychological background of that is kind of leveling or ranking and so on and so forth. Um, and that is what we can use in a certain process to bring people a little bit closer to where they should be. But for this, we need to understand first who is there or the mechanics or at least what we wanted to solve at the end.
Mirko (00:16:54) – Okay. That’s, uh, super interesting. I’m already thinking about the, the pizza game we discussed, uh, with all the turman a few episodes ago where we created a game. I’m, I’m not sure if you’re aware of that, but it’s a simulation where the workshop participants, um, yeah. Baked pizza mm-hmm. according to a process description. And, um, then they start learning how to use process documentation for example, and how to improve, so on.
Jasmin (00:17:20) – It’s the, it’s the same what you can use for, uh, as, so what we did as well was, um, a new process, uh, or what we, the people needed to learn a new process, um, how to do I think, uh, working together globally. Um, I’m not quite sure if it was in governance kind of topics or what it was, but because it was long time ago, but it was as well kind of, uh, it’s not, it was not completely aga escape game, but they needed to, to solve certain things first, and then I got the next and the next. So, um, and then they understood, okay, I need to go to BU’s iris before I can go X, Y, Z, because I need to get the information from there and there and so on and so forth. Um, or especially when business units are changing or if there are new stuff needs to be done, you can use something like a, um, a map what we, what we say, and you can undiscover this map by certain how you do that and so on and so forth.
Jasmin (00:18:23) – So you need to get the, the, the, the or understand and solve the problem first before you can go to the next item or next island or so on and so forth. At, at the le uh, at the end you understand, okay, the process is different and I need to follow it, X, Y, Z, and so on and so forth. But using those techniques is more or likely you getting an impulse. And after that you need to discuss about the findings of the, of the game or about what people observed, because it’s not a standalone where people really tr understand, okay, that was now behind it. So the gamification is literally, um, just to add on, uh, to be frank, uh, what it makes or, um, it makes it easier for the humans or for the users or how you wanted to call them to understand, uh, why it is important. Because you give them the feeling of either succeed, uh, that they succeed or that they actually didn’t succeed. Um, and that is important as well.
Mirko (00:19:31) – Okay. So a lot of emotions also involved there. Mm-hmm. .
Jasmin (00:19:35) – Yeah.
Mirko (00:19:36) – Okay. Yeah. Cool. Let, let’s try to apply this more to processing. Let’s take an example, which I use quite often. So let’s imagine you are, or I am the process owner of a process like taking, uh, hiring new employees process mm-hmm. . And now I would like to train the, the HR recruiters working in my process and inspire them for my new process. How, how can I do that by using, um, gamification aspects there? What would you recommend to me
Jasmin (00:20:06) – May, it sounds odd, but, uh, I would, I would do a role play to be a frank. Yeah. Okay. Um, with certain, uh, rules and restrictions. So with a certain game frame, uh, putting them really into a, literally in, into a role play with certain, uh, targets, with certain items, with certain, um, aspects, so to say. And, uh, really making it like a game so that they have a certain time to play that and so on and so forth. And they need to reach a certain goal. And how, it may sound odd because a lot of people think, oh, that’s what we already do, but you need to carefully design that and it makes fun. Um, and it’s easy to understand and it reach a goal. But usually people, if they replay something and they really understand, um, okay, that needs to be changed, or I’m in the shoes of somebody, whomever, and then as especially as, well, maybe you observe that something needs to be changed in the process because something is not the right way already.
Jasmin (00:21:04) – Or they really understand okay, how the process needs to be kind of enrolled or what they, their role actually is in, in that process. So, um, if it is really about the hiring process, it is really, from my point of perspective, this is such an emotional state and such an emotional process for everybody that, um, it, it, it should be something people really should role play in a, in, in, in a really in the best manner or simulate it at the end. Um, but that needs to be carefully, uh, done. Because if you are in a recruiting and p and we know how it works, it is like you’re getting numbers and you said you need to hire 50 people, X, y, z, and then you’re just a number. And what we forget about that is experience. People nowadays talk about the experiences. They, they’re putting it out on Twitter, they’re putting it out on Instagram, and, um, I think it’s important that, uh, either they experience on their own how it should be or bring their own flavor to it and can say, okay, that doesn’t work, or so on and so forth. So use it on both sides, not just to learn, but to see everything. How we, from top thinking, how it should work, really works out for the, for the one who really need to do it at the end for the recruiters or whomever is in wealth in the process.
Mirko (00:22:29) – Okay. I’m already working on on that. try to find, uh, solutions to, to implement process trainings there. Uh, with regards to what you just said,
Jasmin (00:22:42) – I really would recommend look into Dungeons and Dragons. I mean, um, really, and that’s what I mean, not just the role play, like playing a role really. Yeah. I mean, role play in the game sense. Okay. Literally elaborate
Mirko (00:22:54) – More on that. How
Jasmin (00:22:57) – Usually you give a corrector, usually you give a corrector, you have corrector sheets, you give a correcter a certain, uh, specialty. Uh, either you can go completely crazy and can say, okay, the recruiter is the wizard, like al recruiting, uh, like, because it’s interesting, uh, a lot of people know a lot of the ring, so, uh, he needs to recruit, you know, like the, the friends for the, for the journey, and they need to be aro and the ring. And maybe the ring is the, unfortunately it sounds a bit odd because the ring will be destroyed later. So a good kind of, but, but doesn’t matter. But something like that, you know, like bring them into a, a very interesting kind of different thinking of, okay, if you would need to save the world and put a ring somewhere, who does we need? And then you may have gun, you may have Frodo and so on and so forth.
Jasmin (00:23:50) – What would be the best thing you need? And so in Dungeons and Dragons, or in role play games, really, um, corrector, uh, have a corrector sheet, and you really have a mission. The mission is designed out. Um, the quests on their assign are really designed out and so on and so forth. Um, and that is completely different than a normal role play where you say you’re playing the recruiter, everybody knows how to play a recruiter, you know, because that’s the job. But putting them into a different kind of really may odd way of, uh, you are now gun of the gray and you need to look, okay, how do we destroy that stupid ring and bring that to mortar? And there are a lot of, you know, like in between things like, and you really can, can go both if you like cots more, go for Harry Potter, but being in that liminal space, we can experiment and really take on the, you know, like the, maybe some, some clothing or I don’t know, maquette it sounds, first it sounds really, really odd because people in, in business usually, and that’s what I experience first think, ugh, gain really, I need to wear that.
Jasmin (00:25:01) – And after five minutes, and I say literally, we had CEOs mocking the dead, Rob, uh, with, with Post-Its on their eyes with an ex, and was like on the floor, like me making the, the dead seal. And I was just like, okay, uh, why? Okay, , uh, it’s working.
Mirko (00:25:23) – That’s super cool, .
Jasmin (00:25:25) – And at the end, we, you, you really have the, you are shaping the process on a different way, and you give people the opportunity to experiment. Because if they are in a role still as a recruiter, they try always to think that in the old processes and in the old ways how they work, that they are not doing a mistake. But if you put them out into a real role play, and I mean really role play game, there’s nothing they can do wrong because it’s, it’s, you give them options and you give them stuff to, it’s about a journey they’re taking, and hopefully at the end they’re winning. And it’s not about the wrestle at the end and it, and, uh, it’s about the journey and observations they’re doing on the way.
Mirko (00:26:12) – Well, this really opens up a completely new creative space for me, think about how to inspire people for process. That’s, that’s great. And now let’s, let’s apply this exactly to the topic of process management, because this is one of the biggest problems. The people providing process management to an organization out there have that process are often felt like something really boring. A lot of documentation have to work according to these processes. That really sucks. And how can I inspire the people for working according to processes, improving these processes? What, what do you think? There are other, other ideas in addition to what you just said, how to inspire people for processes.
Jasmin (00:26:57) – I mean, the thing is, um, that usually what motivates people the most is, um, they have purpose, autonomy, and ownership. Like that is something really important for them. Mm-hmm. , um, meaning that, uh, processes are, how should I say? I, I, I usually like to say, okay, we all know how, how soccer or football is played. Uh, because there, it’s a process. I mean, we have rules and restrictions. We know it’s, it’s long. It lasts usually, uh, two half times, and it is like 90 minutes. Um, and there are two goals, and there is a ball and there are 11 people, um, on the, on end of, uh, playing field. And what it is not, it is not described how you need to exactly give the ball to the next, or pass the ball to the next player, but it’s described, okay, you need to pass the ball to the next player somehow to be able to make a goal.
Jasmin (00:28:00) – Um, the thing here is if we are tight in a process, too much people are losing the interest. And if we are tightening too much, a computer can do it literally, then please automate it because we are, no, we are not computers. People’s, uh, possibility and capacity is better in getting, being creative. And that is what a game is doing. It gives you the playing field and it gives you the kind of process, but it gives you some space to be able to fulfill the process in your kind of manner, in your best way. And that is, I think, I know a lot of people now listening to it would say that never would work, that never would work out. But then tell me how can dance still play soccer? How then it, it never changed? How then it, if it is such a shitty process, why millions of people up, uh, playing that and watching that?
Jasmin (00:29:02) – And even, uh, with game, it’s even more processes. You’re in a game, you have a design process you need to fulfill to be able to play that game till the end. But people either drop that if they don’t like the process, they drop the game or they play till the end end, they do it again and again and again and again. Uh, so ask me if that is so wrong, what we do in the gamification or in the game area, why millions, millions of people pay actually to be able to blade out. Yeah. They can’t be that wrong. Right?
Mirko (00:29:40) – Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That, that’s absolutely true. And do you have an idea of how to yeah. Play a game or how to design a game which then inspires people for processes like you, you just explained with the role play for the HR process, is there something else you have in mind thinking about process, how to tell that to the people in a game on a gameified way? .
Jasmin (00:30:06) – Um, I think, um, to be honest, um, there is something, uh, in games or there is always something, or not something, but somebody like a game er or a game designer, um, and for me to see yourself, not like a process designer, but somebody who, who building experience rooms mm-hmm. or rooms for experiences for those people in this processes, because everything is a process. The way is a process. The game itself is a product, but in the game, you are following a process. Mm-hmm. like a, a path rather than to design that in, in, um, as a game designer, if you would just give, uh, like Tetris, I just try to give the metaphor, um, and I try to, to explain that with the soccer, but maybe it was not the, the, the best metaphor, um, as, as a designer, and now you are the business process guy who owns that, okay?
Jasmin (00:31:06) – Mm-hmm. , imagine you were the designer of, uh, Tetris. If you were usually in this process area, you usually try to design to leave no space that the tires of the, of the, of the Tetris, which comes down mm-hmm. Like the PreK, like the, the Ls or the T shapes or whatever you would ha you would have said that needs to go there, there, there, and there and there. And so it’s really strict and you don’t have any chance as a gamer. So as the, as the people who need to follow the process, they don’t have any options to do it differently, to get creative or have the, uh, the, the, the feeling of ownership or so that they, they really can decide. So what you then do as a game designer is to leave space, to leave the opportunity, you know, okay, this time this is coming, this tile is coming, like the eye shape or the L shape or the T shape or the set shape, um, you know, that is coming, but you, you leave that up how it, how it works.
Jasmin (00:32:03) – And at the end it is important. Okay, what is the outcome? And I know that the outcome maybe needs to be exactly like that, but then I, I advise you if you need the exactly like that, what a game designer does, they use algorithms for that. Because if something needs to be verified with the outcome that it a hundred percent needs to come, like that don’t leave space for human beings. And that’s what a designer not doing, uh, a game designer gives that, if it needs to be really like that, it gives an algorithm towards it into the process to leave space for creativity and freedom and so on and so forth. So as a business, uh, um, um, process a manager, I recommend you to think not as a process, as a strict way, think of how you can opportun how to give opportunities where possible to people. Mm-hmm. having this exp this experience and bringing their own creativity. If that is not possible, please, and maybe that is something not cool to say, but please then use computers for that because they’re more accurate than human beings.
Mirko (00:33:17) – Yeah. Okay. I, I fully agree. And now I also, um, found out that you are, uh, having your own Twitch channel, and I’d love to learn more. I’d love to learn more about that . So, um, what are your experiences in, uh, hosting your own Twitch channel for gamification? Maybe you have to explain what exactly Twitch is and what you’re doing there, but I’m super curious on that as well.
Jasmin (00:33:46) – Uh, so I try to say it in one sentence what Twitch is. Twitch is the YouTube for non YouTubers, so for gamers, but everybody as well is welcome there. And I’m not streaming games there. Not at all. I’m not playing there. Uh, but it’s one of the first, um, live streaming, so it’s kind of the most people probably know LinkedIn life, uh, here in the business, uh, kind of context. So it’s LinkedIn life, but for everybody and for people like me who are a little bit strange . And, uh, so what I do there or how I actually, um, ended up there is, um, I don’t like the time spending into building nice YouTube videos because it takes me too long. And then I talk to my brother who is a streamer, his own on Twitch, but he streams literally, he’s a, he’s a online leaguer kind of guy, so he talks about games and that stuff.
Jasmin (00:34:50) – So he’s really into the gaming thing, um, and let’s, plays me not. So for me, it was like, okay, talk to him and say, okay, listen, I, I don’t know what I should do. I I’m a raw person. I’m a, I’m a really impressive person, and YouTube just, you know, like, it is, I don’t like it because I need to, you know, like cut the stuff. And he said, okay, may, I don’t know if that would work, Jasmine, but you are educational. That’s a YouTube topic, but try it out. Just start. And so it started and, um, I still don’t know if it works out, but for me, it, it’s kind of working. I mean, if you compare it to big streamers, I’m a very, very small streamer, but I have my community who watch me three times a week. And, uh, we are exploring the space of, at the moment, uh, we go through reality is broken from Gen Mcal, which, uh, deals with alternate reality games and like really about psychological backgrounds of, of gaming and how that, uh, inter is interwoven with business or real life.
Jasmin (00:35:55) – And we look at the signs behind that. So a lot of people are coming, listening in the morning. I dunno why they’re doing that, but okay. Whatever they like. Um, and sometimes it’s just talking about, you know, like what happens in or happened during the week or in other lives, or, um, just try, you know, like having a good time sometimes as well together. And sometimes we as well talking about ux, sometimes we talk about, um, collaborations I’m having, for instance, with some other companies how to use gamification, how to use UX and so on and so forth. But why I really do it is because of the community. And I think, um, that is more and more coming how you build a community, how you hold a community, and how you have the process of to be found on Twitch. Because Twitch is not a search engine like YouTube, like Google.
Jasmin (00:36:56) – Mm-hmm. , and, um, what you can do actually, um, to bring that, uh, content to your, to your audience. And I think that is something inspiring for me and getting the feedback directly from, from the community and be able to build that into my products or processes or, or we did workshops, for instance, um, for, uh, for a brand, uh, who developed, or the brand developed, um, a learning journey and story together, um, with us, with other streamers and me. And now they, they will roll out it, um, I think for their employees later on then.
Mirko (00:37:46) – Okay. Is there, uh, a way to have private Twitch streams as well for company internal stuff, or is it always public?
Jasmin (00:37:55) – It’s always public. There’s no opportunity to close that, but you can have the opportunity, um, if you want that, but that’s not what it is. Mm-hmm. Twitch is not about having this, you know, like private, private stuff. Um, it is for everybody, it’s tv. Mm-hmm. , it was just in tv, also television, and now it’s twitch.tv. It’s, it’s not like, and so it’s broadcasting, it’s available for everybody and it’s not like Zoom or Teams or whatever. Um, and that is not a spirit of Twitch. So if you are looking for something private that wouldn’t work there.
Mirko (00:38:37) – Okay. Yeah. Would be interesting to think about streaming, uh, company internal process topics there, or just, uh, setting up a new process, uh, Twitch channel to talk about, um, the stuff I’m talking about all the time, you
Jasmin (00:38:51) – Can start already. You just need to bolt that, uh, bolt that, uh, that wonderful channel, and then you just can immediately start, it’s a little bit hard to do start, but you literally, you could just download u b obs Yeah. Um, and having some, uh, stream elements with the chat bot and stuff, but you can use whatever you want as a protesting service. And then, um, uh, something on the other hand with the, uh, you know, like chat kind of way, to be honest, it’s a process itself. You really need to understand from my point of perspective how it is working, how the stream itself is working, um, when you’re starting, when our, uh, shout outs are coming, uh, how you’re setting up the bots, how you’re setting up your sh your, your, your interactions and so on and so forth. You need to have content and, and, and literally it’s a process on its own. It needs to be somehow kind of streamlined, because if you don’t do, you mess it up. And, uh, it’s very interesting to be honest.
Mirko (00:40:00) – Yeah. That’s super cool. So maybe there will be a new process Twitch channel in the future. That’s super interesting. Thanks for these inspiring impulses. That’s just, just great. You’re welcome. Cool. Yeah. Then, uh, let’s sum it up a little bit and, um, transferring your overall experience to processes, what are your top three recommendations to our listeners to rethink processes to get to more human-centric BP M approach?
Jasmin (00:40:26) – Um, first, um, please think of the value you are adding. I know that we talk a lot about human centricity. Mm-hmm. , I just wanted to give another, uh, viewpoint on that because as I said, I’m a, I’m a ux, so I dealing a lot with, um, human and beliefs and so on and so forth. At the end, what we try to build is value, and this value for us as the user for the company and so on and so forth, could look different. So value-based means, for me, emotional based, uh, services or processes or products, which then in per definition are actually human-centered, because you are fulfilling a certain value for the user, you fulfilling a certain emotion for the user. So that may not value in the sense of economical value, but I mean, really the value, what you’re adding on top of it, um, in Germany you would say VE or emotional benefits, this is important for me and it would make something I would recommend, please think of what value you are adding to the process and how you can build a value-based process, not just a human-centric or business-oriented or wherever, but what is the value you’re bringing to that process.
Jasmin (00:41:54) – Second would be see yourself as really designer or really the game master if you want, like that of the process, because I think that’s important that you understand to give freedom and creativity within the process. If you’re not able to provide it for human or value, you need to understand that that value, what you’re putting in is something, uh, computer or artificial intelligence or a system or whatever can bring to the process. So I would recommend to see yourself as a game designer, if you want to say it, see it from that point, or gay master rather than some odd way of the old way to see yourself as the process orchestrator because orchestrator is not a designer and doesn’t go maybe the new ways. And, um, the third recommendation would be have fun and try to give fun to others with the processes, because that is, for me, something, um, you know, I know that it’s hard to create fun, but if you’re able to understand that because it’s as well very hard in games to create fun, but games actually create fun because of the design. So if you’re having the top mind, like the, uh, value-based, which comes with the, uh, human centricity, which then comes with the so-called game master design, you automatically are able to build fun. And that’s, I think, most important within processes because if it’s not fun, a computer can do it.
Mirko (00:43:30) – Wow. That, that’s so cool. I just, um, was part of a training where I said, my expectation is to have fun in the end. Yeah. And, uh, this is always, yeah, getting up in the morning. I want to have fun. Sure. Uh, I need to make money to survive somehow. But, uh, if I cannot review the day in the afternoon and say, yeah, this was a fun day, then we’ll be really sad. So that’s cool. Thanks
Jasmin (00:43:55) – And fun. On the other hand, if I may add on top of that, it doesn’t always have this A ha ha haha way, you know, like it needs to add some purpose or meaning. Um, that is sometimes as well what we, what we call fun, uh, for the user. And that is what happens in game design, that it is meaningful what the user is doing, and that creates fun at the end. Yeah.
Mirko (00:44:18) – Yeah. Yeah. That’s true. Ah, cool. That was so inspiring talking to you. And I, I could deep dive into other topics, uh, for hours I would say, and maybe we should have a follow up session on some specific aspects, uh, later on , but, okay. Um, for, for today, just to, to wrap it up, um, what is your key message to our listeners to rethink processes,
Jasmin (00:44:44) – Um, process, and I, I, I love to give that little metaphor again, I love to talk in metaphors. Um, you can have either the fast way with the I C E, but then you may lack the experience. And sometimes, um, if you go, and that’s with the game, UX usually makes it very fast to come from A to B. Mm-hmm. , it’s the fastest way with a lot of technology. You pay a lot of money for it, and it’s like streamlined as hell. And if something doesn’t work, it’s, it’s done. It’s a shitty process. You, I mean, ICU is the best maybe metaphor for it because then you’re standing on the, on the station, uh, and the platform and you’re thinking, oh, 50 minutes already to light or sheets not, you know, likes, ugh. And sometimes if you are wanna have the best experience, the fastest way and it’s most expensive is maybe not the one you should choose, maybe.
Jasmin (00:45:40) – And that always usually happens by accident. You take maybe not the fastest way, but maybe you take a little bit of slower way, um, but you make more experiences. Meaning if you go for user centricity, you can either make it fast or you can make it with a lot of experiences and with a lot of experiences, it means that you may are not the fastest way, but you will have obstacles coming in that area may when you are having the A to B and you take not the i c but maybe the ritual drain or a slower train, you may have time to talk to people, you may go to the, uh, need to to, to uh, go out and in again of the train you need to get something to drink. You see other, um, I don’t know, maybe you go over, uh, over EUC and you can enjoy the nature.
Jasmin (00:46:36) – Um, this is something which is important as well for people because experiences are key for people. For us as human beings. We don’t learn a without failure and we are not able, um, to build upon not failure with good experience, with good example if we cannot make them. And if you don’t understand how they’re done. So at the end it comes down. Um, and that is what I wanted to say to you. You can make it fast for sure, it’s a good process, but it’s expensive. And if you, sorry for the, for the soy, but fuck it up, you, um, will have a problem because it still not working. But you may slow down a little bit and give the opportunity to make experiences. This may not the fastest way, but some things don’t need to be convenient, they don’t need to be fast. So why the hell is everybody looking for the fastest way and not the one which brings you the most experience?
Mirko (00:47:43) – Yeah. Nothing to add. I love that. Thank you. That, that’s great. So where can our listeners go to if they wanna learn more about you?
Jasmin (00:47:53) – They can find me on LinkedIn if they want to. So Jasmine, uh, karata. So you just need to look for that. You can find me on Jasmine minus karatas dot c h, so for Switzerland, um, or you can look me up on Twitch if you ever try, want to try that, but I, I have to say it’s very special. Yeah.
Mirko (00:48:13) – I’ll put the link into the show notes for sure and link to all the listeners out there. You have to try it. And I will add the time when you are online as well. So, uh, thank you. Just a remind reminder for myself , so that they will be able to see you live there and that’s super cool. Yeah.
Jasmin (00:48:28) – Thank you .
Mirko (00:48:29) – Okay, perfect. Just, uh, one outlook, uh, to other topics. Um, what, what would you recommend, which topic, method, tool, expert, whatever would you recommend to having, uh, close the look at for us to get ideas to re uh, to rethink processes?
Jasmin (00:48:46) – I think it’s, at the moment it’s very interesting to look into, I know you heard it a lot, but Metaverse and different opportunities. Okay. And, uh, how it is shaped there, because I think processes are there different. So you can have either David Buni for it. Um, he’s one of the initiators of the initiatives of the Metaverse talks here in Switzerland. I think that is something interesting on processes, heights shaped. And on the other hand, I really would recommend you to look for a real game designer. Mm-hmm. . Um, I have a lot of them. I can give you names of them and it depends on, on where you want to go towards two. Um, but I think it would be interesting to see how they shape processes on their side because they see it different, but Sameish.
Mirko (00:49:33) – Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I, I will. So I need names , but maybe you can give me these names, I can give
Jasmin (00:49:39) – You later some, some names because there a lot. And um, so, but I wanted to give you somewhere you can a little bit have better understanding.
Mirko (00:49:49) – Ah, that’s, that’s very cool. Thanks a lot for this. So is there anything else before we leave the aircraft, because I don’t know if you already realized that we, we, we smoothly landed, uh, the aircraft. So is there anything else you would like to share with our listeners?
Jasmin (00:50:04) – Removed before flight, right? ?
Mirko (00:50:06) – . Yeah,
Jasmin (00:50:11) – I think that’s important.
Mirko (00:50:13) – . Great. Okay. Nothing to add. So, um, finally, how would you describe your flight experience with just three words and don’t say we moved before and then these are four words, , these are four words, . So how would you describe the flight experience? ,
Jasmin (00:50:35) – Lean, fun and expressive.
Mirko (00:50:44) – Okay, cool. Yeah, for me it was also very inspiring and, uh, a lot of fun. So Jasmine, thank you so much for being in new process podcast. Have a great day. Bye-bye.
Speaker 1 (00:50:55) – Let’s recap today’s new process. Inspiration, inspiration, inspiration.
Mirko (00:50:59) – Hey, what was that removed before flight are three words, not four. Uh, obviously I’m not able to count to three. Um, yeah, maybe I was a little bit confused because we had these, um, techs which are normally used, um, to mark the places at an aircraft where work is going on and to make sure that the work is finalized. And then, um, these, uh, flags are removed before flight. Uh, maybe, you know, these red, uh, flags on, on an aircraft. And we used them as merchandising for the former process management system of Lufthansa technique, which was called IQ move, more or less two words. So, um, the texts were then called IQ move before flight. So look into your processes before flying. Yeah, okay. But, uh, let’s get back to the content of the interview. Um, I would say Jasmine’s ideas on how to gamify a learning process completely opened up a new creative space of thinking for me.
Mirko (00:52:07) – So I never thought about the examples she gave to us. So that’s, that’s really interesting for me. And, um, yeah, let’s sum it up. My five key learnings are, the first one is see yourself as a game designer rather than a process orchestrator, or as I would say it, process architect. So see yourself as a game master. That’s a nice picture, I would say. And then in the second step, gamify the process. Gamify the learning journey and create experiences. So use existing games as templates, like Escape Games or Dungeons and Dragons, the settlers of qan Monopoly, whatever. And then make the learning journey, the process fun experience. And then the third, my third key learning is you can push it to the next level by framing the learning journey in a gamified way. So in case of a role play, which is always a good idea to experience a process, I would say push it to create a space like lot of the Rings or Harry Potter or Peter Pan or Mario and Luigi.
Mirko (00:53:17) – That’s also nice. And as Jasmine said, think about how Gandolph would recruit his crew to find the ring and use customs masks dress up like these characters. Um, yeah, that’s, that’s super interesting. And these, uh, first three key rings or these first three steps, I would say, uh, were to create the impulses and the fun experience. And then, um, learning number four or step number four would be to connect these experiences with theory. And this is something we already talked about in the episode with Ola Tillman. Um, so it’s really necessary to connect the experiences with theory and, um, finally after the game, discuss the learnings and connect these with the real process. And then finally, the fifth learning is, yeah, that the fastest way is not always the best one. Um, I remember the train example she gave to us. So sometimes the longer journey, the, the slower journey is the better way to create a better process and a better, bigger, stronger value and a better experience for the people.
Mirko (00:54:34) – So keep these five key learnings in mind. And wow, wrapping that up, I really get excited to dive deeper into this. And, um, maybe to completely rethink the way to inspire people. So to build a game to inspire people for processes, maybe taking the existing core idea of the pizza game we already talked about in several episodes and completely rethink redesign this game based on the learnings of this episode. That, that’s something which I have in mind and I’m thinking about. So let’s see if, if you are interested in this, then just send me an email with I love pizza as the subject line. Uh, send that to newprocesslab.com and then let’s see what we can make out of it. So if you’re interested in that, that will be super fun. Cool. And yeah, finally to give you an outlook, the next episode will be another tool episode coming out already next week and then the week after there will be a real process architect in the interview. So that’s something you ask for. And uh, I organize that and that’s going to be a super interesting story with nice insights as well. So stay curious and keep on rethinking your process. But for now, thank you very much for listening. Bye-bye. And Al,
Mirko (00:56:15) – Okay. Before you leave, I have to pick up the idea of creating a game to inspire people for process again, and maybe the core idea of using the Pizza restaurant example is a good one. So if you’re interested in this, please just send me an email with I Love Pizza as subject to email@example.com. Thank you much and bye-bye.