How to rethink processes with your hands with Martin Hochreiter and Tobias Zucali from mkrz lab

How to rethink processes with your hands with Martin Hochreiter and Tobias Zucali from mkrz lab

#054 Let’s get from doing to thinking!

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In this episode, I’m talking to Martin Hochreiter and Tobias Zucali, the founders of “mkrz lab” that gets people to think with their hands. Their focus is on prototyping to discover new solutions and improve processes in teams and organizations through their methodology and hands-on activities. We discover some interesting connections to the New Process Life Cycle.

We also talk about body prototyping and physical artefacts and how they can be used to really find answers to tough questions.

Today’s Guests:

Martin Hochreiter and Tobias Zucali

Martin and Tobias founded mkrz lab in 2023. mkrz lab is located in the Tabakfabrik Linz, Austria. Their mission is to get “From doing to thinking”. With mkrz lab, they also founded a hand workshop as a “making is thinking lab”, which is also named “Alternative lab for Future Skills”.

Before founding Makers Lab, Martin worked in medical informatics and automation business in various leading positions at KEBA Group. He studied Information Systems at Kepler University of Linz and is an active maker since he graduated from mechanical engineering high school.

Tobias — before founding mkrz lab — was CTO at Impact AI for about three years. Before this, he worked as UX Designer and UI Developer for various companies. He studied interior design and media art, and learned programming as an autodidact during high school. Since then, he has been involved with IT, especially in combination it with other disciplines.

You’ll learn:

• How to get from doing to thinking
• What body prototyping is and how to use it to really find answers to tough questions
• How to apply the makers methodology to the New Process Life Cycle
• How to develop a physical artifact to get people excited about your process

Learnings for New Process:

• The Maker Methodology can be applied in different phases of the New Process Life Cycle:
  Process Purpose, Process Strategy, Designing Phase, Implementation Phase, Steering Phase, Improvement Phase

Resources

• Martins’s LinkedIn Profile
• Tobias’ LinkedIn Profile
• Martin’s Mail
• Tobias’ Mail
• www.mkrz.at
• Joseph Campbell: The hero’s journey
• Ole Tillmann: Beyond the obvious – Agile presentation design

Get notified about new episodes:

Transcript

Please note that the transcript was generated automatically and only slightly adjusted. It does not claim to be a perfect transcription.

Mirko: 0:19

Yeah, welcome to episode 54 of the New Process Podcast. Today, we’ll explore how to rethink processes with your hands. Therefore, I’m talking to Martin Hochreiter and Tobias Zucali from Mkrz Lab. Martin and Tobias founded Mkrz Lab in 2023. Mkrz Lab is Mkrz located in the Tabakfabrik Linz in Austria. Their mission is to get from doing to thinking. With Mkrz Lab, they also founded a hand workshop as the Making is thinking Lab, which is also named Alternative Lab for Future Skills.

Mirko: 0:55

Before founding Mkrz Lab, martin worked in medical informatics and automation business in various leading positions at KEBA Group. He studied information systems at Kepler University of Linz and is an active maker since he graduated from mechanical engineering high school. Tobias, before founding Mkrz Lab, was CTO at Impact AI for about three years. Before this, he worked as UX designer and UI developer for various companies. He studied interior design and media art and learned programming as an auto deduct during high school. Since then, he has been involved with IT, especially in combination with other disciplines.

Mirko: 1:37

I got introduced to Martin and Tobias by Astrid Kirchhoff, who was on my podcast, a year ago. After I met both for a first exchange, I just had to invite them to the New Process podcast to learn more about what they are doing so. In this episode, you Martin learn how what body prototyping is and how to use it to really find answers to tough questions, how to apply the maker’s methodology to the new process lifecycle and how to develop a physical artifact to get people excited about processes. For me, it was one of the most inspiring conversations I’ve ever had, so enjoy the interview with Martin and Tobias.

Mirko: 2:28

Yeah, welcome to New Process Podcast, martin and Tobias. I’m super happy to have you here today. After being introduced to you by Astrid Kirchhoff, who was on my podcast about a year ago, I simply had to invite you to learn more about your maker’s approach. So welcome, Martin and Tobias.

Tobias: 2:45

Hi, Mirko, happy to be here.

Martin: 2:46

Hi, Mirko.

Mirko: 2:47

Yeah, great to have you here.

Let’s start right in with the check-in. So what do you prefer in an aircraft, aisle or window seat, Tobias?

Tobias: 2:55

Window, as I Martin to see the world from above, but usually I sit at the aisle seat, as the kids have the privilege to sit next to the window, even though they’re not really young anymore yeah, I know this issue.

Mirko: 3:10

I would say, Martin, what about you?

Martin: 3:12

well, it’s aisle . And business trips and for really flights. I prefer the window seat as it offers more privacy.

Mirko: 3:21

It’s sleep better yeah. and what is your favorite airport?

Martin: 3:26

it’s Hong Kong. It’s just such a crazy human-made project and built on this island and it’s one of the most vivid places I’ve seen so far.

Tobias: 3:38

Okay and Tobias. In general, I try to avoid airports. Every other form of transportation is better for our environment, but the airport that fascinated me most was the local airport in Tarasalam, tanzania. It’s in the back of the international airport. You will need a lot of patience getting there with the shuttle and also waiting there for your plane, but it’s a lot to see and a great experience while waiting for the small plane bringing you to sansevier okay.

Mirko: 4:09

So I’ve never been to sansevier. I’ve been to hong kong in 1996, I think it was still the old airport and that was crazy. It was super interesting. I’d love to go there again. So we’ll see what the future brings. But let’s talk about processes today and what you are doing. But how would you describe your relationship to processes, tobias?

Tobias: 4:29

I arrived in software engineering in 2007. And the company I joined was in the midst of switching from waterfall to HL processes to Scrum. So, even though the implementation of this process was not easy and is never ending, I’m still impressed by the power of good processes from back then, and the company’s product was software for business case management. Part of my work was implementing a BPMN, a business process model notation editor that was able is still able to translate the graphical business process into a workflow of the business cases, which was quite interesting and, yeah, I still love this piece. Personally, I’m someone with an urge for shared processes, needing the safety of knowing their M and to connect with the others involved.

Mirko: 5:24

Okay, that’s cool. And Martin, what about your relationship to processes?

Martin: 5:29

Well, I fell in love with processes during my studies of business informatics, and it’s especially about the connecting role. It’s a lot about arranging single steps together and connecting different departments and teams together, even companies, to an optimum sequence and outcome. I see a lot of interdisciplinarity there and it’s a bridging functionality of these steps which is really important. As, personally, a bridge builder and love to connect people, it’s my love and passion for collaboration and, in combination with ICT systems, it’s a wonderful and challenging job. I think so.

Mirko: 6:18

Okay, yeah, I also love connecting people. Our listeners know that the purpose of the Lufthansa group is connecting people, cultures and economies, so connecting people. That listeners know that the purpose of the Lufthansa group is connecting people, cultures and economies, so connecting people. That’s super cool. That’s great. So you both founded Mkrz Lab in 2023 to bring the mission from doing to thinking to life. What is this mission all?

Martin: 6:40

about. So we use making as a method to encourage and challenge people in their learning and innovation skills, and especially about groups, and therefore we offer different innovative formats, methods and tools. How did this came along? Well, we, seven years ago, on a ski mountain hut, we created the idea of building longboards and together even we are not skaters as we enjoyed the making so much as a beautiful experience with huge learnings.

Martin: 7:13

Also, learning skating at the age of 40 plus was something really interesting and yeah, so we understood making is more for us and it’s not just as a hobby building boards and by learning more and more about the useful effects of making, we decided to quit our jobs and dive deeper into these topics. The journey started by the founding of our alternative lab for future skills. Alternative lab for future skills it’s a physical location and simple handcraft workshop here where we encourage the people and in different making approaches and formats. Yeah, and we replied for a research grant which was given to us, and so that’s why we digged into the topic deeper, and it’s a lot about the four c’s communication, collaboration, creativity and critical thinking where we had more than 20 other people involved in an open innovation process okay, that’s.

Mirko: 8:16

That’s super cool. And, to be more specific, what type of formats, methods or tools have you developed to support your approach?

Tobias: 8:24

So in general, we use manual creation as a method to activate individuals and groups and raise their attention, offer them a setting with a deep focus on a topic, co-create a shared story, get into flow, shift perspective, communicate with each other, open up to creativity, activate critical thinking, having fun and even more.

Tobias: 8:46

In order to get this, we developed a kind of a framework for our formats that we use regularly. So usually we start from the individual, we start with a good question around the topic and we start with some intuitive making. We usually have this check in and share what you want to bring to the group from what you made. We have small pieces, often of input, like experts talking about demo methods, and we collect the insights on the way this might end into building a shared prototype, a representation of understanding, and we focus there usually on these qualities, the treasures we want to find and want to get to, and the resistance is hindering us from getting there. And this input is the one that we reflect and sort and condense, is the one that we reflect and sort and condense and then try to find new paths and define, somehow, paths to transfer them also into the organization, into the next steps, like into a process and define follow-up steps.

Martin: 9:58

Yeah, In detail. What we developed is methods and games for the different steps. There are some examples also to give here. We use, for example, body prototyping. It’s similar to sculpturing, but we include the body as a carrier of the creation.

Mirko: 10:16

So it’s a very useful and interesting reflection option, so the people involved are part of what you are creating, right?

Martin: 10:25

Yes, to be a bit more precise, it’s, as I said, it’s about reflecting, and we give different materials that we provide to the people and we just ask them an example. When it’s about a belief in example, they try to build this belief to their body. It might be something that extends the view or even it hinders them in a certain way to move, whatever. So it’s really an experience on their body and how it feels to them, on their body, on their interaction with other people and also the interaction to the process itself.

Mirko: 11:01

Okay, that sounds interesting. Yeah, Tobias.

Tobias: 11:04

Yeah, that is one of the founding principles of how we approach the topics. It’s always like starting from yourself. So it’s about what you see as valuable, what are the things you want to you’re striving for in some way, of course, somehow connected to the question we work on and also, what are your resistances, what is hindering you from getting there? And then the process is about learning from each other, like sharing these and trying to get a few on the topic. That’s somehow from many, many perspectives, and so we take this starting from yourself pretty direct this, even going into body prototyping build something on your body that extends you to reach something or hinders you from reaching something, can you?

Mirko: 11:58

give a specific example of how this looks like. How do you extend your body to express this? What do I use? Post-its paper, I don’t know.

Martin: 12:09

Wood or we used from wires to ropes to fabrics, pieces of woods, and we had a workshop where we gave the people 10 minutes and within seven minutes we had the most fantastic creations. There were people having a kind of cap on their head as a mobile phone holder. We had really people more or less building something to their leg which makes them kind of limping and not movable, so the extension was limited in the way how they could move. Yeah, maybe Tobias has more.

Tobias: 12:48

Yeah, if you want to think about our place, our alternative lab for future skills, it’s a place that offers you a lot of different material. So it’s really really different material, but basic material, so nothing that needs big machines to be transformed or so. And there are also no laser cutters and this kind of stuff, because then you cannot intuitively work this material because you need to formalize it first and go through several steps. So it’s really material you can just grab and do something with it, and we tend to use it in uncommon ways, like combining tools and material in different ways, as you are used just to try to express whatever is needed to be said or to be expressed.

Mirko: 13:41

Okay, wow, that’s cool. You know I’m more the engineering guy and in the past I haven’t talked about emotions that much and I love this approach, this more technical approach. To start with my body in in a technical way, building something that’s super fascinating. That’s, that’s cool. And what was the best project you have ever been working on?

Tobias: 14:05

In fact it’s in our common history, the FFT project. So the project we got funded from the Austrian Research Promotion Agency, which we are finishing right now. So our research question is how can manual creation challenge and encourage the learning and innovation skills? So that’s the communication, collaboration, critical thinking and creativity and, as Martin said before, we co-created an open innovation process with more than 20 different experts and partners from many fields. So professors from technical university, art university, instrument makers, so really the craftmen, ergo and arts therapists, makers, social initiatives, artists, architects and companies.

Martin: 14:58

And the work phase of the project. It had every workshop from the open innovation phase at different making and prototyping sequences which we collected together in a shared platform, and so we tested our and formats and methods together to see and improve the results and different reflection ways we used. And for the games and itself, there are different further games, so tobias.

Mirko: 15:30

What about you? What was the best project you’ve ever been working on?

Tobias: 15:34

yeah, in the fft project we mentioned, we also created a game that might be pretty interesting, also in the context of processes it we call it Startway R game.

Tobias: 15:47

It offers a deep and creative dive into a topic while winding up in a creative and playful approach. In fact, it’s an empty board game, okay, so you search for qualities within the group and you don’t even really judge over it. You just put a lot of politics. At least one person in the room thinks it’s something worse of looking on and then the whole room, including the people playing the game, becomes the prototype. So you have a round-based game and then One after the other starts to play and make something up on how to change this room to become more of this quality and asks the others to join. It’s a quick-paced game, like you have just a time slot of several minutes, you decide on yourself alone and you even go further than the first idea martin shared with the body prototyping, where you include the people in the room and the room and try to get towards qualities and, in between, search for insights like what might this tell us to the question we asked up front?

Mirko: 17:06

okay, that’s fascinating, and what are your key learnings so far?

Martin: 17:11

Well, there is major key learning to us. It’s trust the process and people, and it’s especially when it’s about more improvised approaches, the most important thing that they really they will come up something after some time. So it’s just really question of trust. So, trust the process, yeah, that’s true. And for the, for the output, I really loved how we had this diverse group what to be, as also described before and also in our core team. It’s really we had a lot of, yeah, fun together, creating and also being courage enough to really go to completely new directions, even more artistical one approaches and also performative approaches.

Martin: 17:57

To bring this together with more technical approach made us really nice outputs and at the end, this can really lead to new innovations and brings a big chance to the people. So this is really important and beside this, we understood that the intuitive free making, what we call it is short exercises of 10-15 minutes. They really address very much implicit knowledge also which we cannot always access by using the material. It is a perfect way to widen really our horizon. It’s like, as we know it from design thinking. It’s really a great opportunity to open up and see the different perspectives and explore the topic from many ways and go to new directions and there are 10 minutes, as I said, is many times enough and leads to deep insights for every participant we had in these phases.

Tobias: 19:03

Yeah, we really experienced this that playful approaches offer a lot of possibility to open up people and to become part of the process and contribute. So I also love your example from the pizza game you referred to in the other podcast, and we also worked on creating games to involve people. This making together, this co-creating, creates belonging and raises the engagement of the people. So it’s really cool if you achieve it, to somehow grab the seeds coming from a diverse group into a final product, like a process, and yeah, we also experienced a lot with the artifact. So the objects created through a process, especially if you also touched them with the hand, they really act as a storage, a workshop, but in a safe space. Something new can emerge and it opens up a lot of possibility also, like equality between the people. That’s super cool.

Mirko: 20:22

I have to learn more about that. So I know you already familiarized yourself with the new process approach and the phases of the new process lifecycle. So the process of process management I am using, starting with defining process purpose and developing a process strategy, designing the process, mapping the process in a tool, implementing the process, steering process execution and improving process execution. Just as a brief overview, these are the different phases and I know you already said I initially thought, oh, prototyping what you were doing would be nice for the implementation phase, but you said no, no, no, we have ideas for the other phases as well. So let’s start with process purpose. So how would you use your methodologies, your tools to develop process purpose or to support developing process?

Tobias: 21:11

purpose. We are widening up the scope to intuitive making. So, like the example before, using body prototype helps to get even deeper and keep the focus on your needs and powers instead of the problem of the others Like really focusing on yourself. We can use the methods to lead the straight path. Like, yes, we know we need a process from A to B. We have an idea on how it passes, but sometimes these ready-made answers might be more of a problem than somehow the solution. So we really offer possibilities to go another path than the solution. So we really offer possibilities to go another path than the usual.

Tobias: 21:53

And these tangible prototypes that we can create, that we create with our people in the workshops. They always involve a constructive ambiguity, so it’s like they don’t have one way to read. Again, you can. It welcomes critical thinking, as there are always many possibilities to work with it, and all of these fragments of insights might be a foundation of the process. So it’s about widening up a lot, searching for insights, searching for other perspectives and condensing them down into a commonly shared process purpose, for example.

Mirko: 22:35

Yeah, I love this, especially when the group is trying to discover their rules, behaviors, the emotional aspects of the group. I think that’s a good idea to use this method for this part of developing process purpose, to get more insights. That’s cool. And continuing with process strategy, do you have specific ideas on how to develop a process strategy with the help of your methodologies?

Tobias: 23:05

Yeah, we already did kind of it. Okay cool, like we have a method of building worlds, like building a representation, like a map, and putting the qualities there which we want to reach, the treasures, and putting monsters there or the resistances, the obstacles we have to overcome, to overcome, and, if we really put it direct, on this example of processes, you can locate yourself like where are we starting, where do we want to be, and really like working on a map on what path to go, what obstacles we have to overcome, finding ways to do so. So there would be a pretty direct translation from such a world and map where you have to find paths, have a perspective on a certain topic and, yeah, to a process where you also have all those steps that’s fascinating.

Mirko: 24:02

so talking about where are you right now, where do we want to go, developing a target picture of the process, and so on. That’s cool. I already have some ideas how this could look like in practice. Yeah, cool, and should we continue with the next phase? So designing processes. This is quite close to modeling Like modeling, tobias, like you did in the tool in the past but designing process is more the creative part, where you can use whatever method you would like to use and then you model the process in a specific notation in a tool. So these are the two phases. How could you apply your methods there to design processes, for example?

Martin: 24:43

yeah, in general, our approaches are, and also for this design phase, I think it’s very important we consider them as really human-centered and it’s about really activating the group together and co-create different aspects of the business processes in a physical way and for people really much more tangible, and help them to visualize different passes that happen, as Tobias also described before. And by really physically building them, either as really one-to-one prototypes in a real huge space or even just small aspects, the people really can approach the overall picture in a much more top perspective. This is the thing what helps them to dive into it in this way and, yeah, it makes the transformational journey from the here now into the future way more tangible, perce, perceivable and really experienceable.

Mirko: 25:54

Okay, how would you build this kind of prototype? Would you more like building the, the different process steps or the result of the process out of boxes or how? How would you do this? Just to get a better understanding of how this could look like.

Martin: 26:09

For me there are different ways. I mean before these phases, what we had before. I think it’s really take certain parts out of the process and really try to see in a kind of chain how it flows through a room helps really people to understand. To be as old as I had always this marble machine thing, really building process as a marble machine, which I still love, and because it really has a kind of flow when a marble rolls down and gets to the different steps and maybe needs to be lifted up back again to another space or even area and level.

Tobias: 26:56

So there are different ways to do it and gives people complete new perspectives. Yeah, so somehow there are pretty many options on how to do it. I think the core part of it is to find the elements that somehow define the process, like what you want to reach, what are somehow the hindering elements, what are somehow the things you have to do in between, and then you can choose the scale you want to work on it. So it can be somehow this model map where you put stuff and then try to paint paths, but it can also be a big space where you do a one-to-one, like you walk the process and go from A to B and you somehow represent the document. Going through the document process, for example, which also invites stuff like playing all possible ways, you can imagine that the process fails, which might be quite a funny thing, but also an insightful thing. And if you, for example, try to blow it up in one-to-one really work with huge cardboards and tapes and arrows, you could even make a process fully experienceable, fully immersive that’s so fascinating, wow, cool.

Mirko: 28:18

I think we have to find a way to really try it out.

Martin: 28:21

I would love to experience that myself, how this could look like, and, yeah, that’s super cool and and if you take the marble machine you know you have a the marble stops on every time you wait for a release. You see, really it stops, yeah, and you wait for the 30 seconds or a minute that someone releases it, which is an action in in real time, maybe one or two days to wait for an answer, a confirmation from management, to release a purchase order, whatever yeah, I already have ideas on that.

Mirko: 28:54

So people out there listening to the podcast if you think your process should be applied, or the methodology we are talking about should be applied to your process, then just send me an email and we have to find a way on how to figure out how this really looks like. That’s, that’s so cool, and so, after a design phase and modeling the process, then comes the implementation phase, and that’s where I thought out that’s, that’s a good idea, to use your methodology to train the people. That was my, my first idea. But how would you do that? How would you support the implementation phase, for example, training people, or what else would you imagine in this part?

Tobias: 29:34

Like, if you already used our methods in the first steps of designing, you might already have found some language on how to express it, as we are working with a lot of symbolic way on expressing what should be done, also what is the purpose of the whole thing. So we might just use the language created in the first steps and try to transfer it in a way that it’s useful for communication for the group. So maybe it might be artifacts, maybe it might be kind of a picture, but somehow, if we find other ways of expressing the purpose of the process or expressing the steps of the process, it might help also in this implementation phase to communicate to the others or maybe make it tangible for the others. So if we spent the time to really do the cool model machine, then yeah, we have won. But this might be the more technical approach.

Martin: 30:40

And maybe to come back to when, as you asked for the training, how it could be really train people on the process, I still do see it really the important aspects, make them really physically visible and tangible. So where you really build processes and even in a kind of role play, where people really do the different steps and understand what is needed, who is waiting, that makes this very much more experienceable to the people.

Mirko: 31:14

Absolutely. Yeah, I think it completely makes sense to start with your methodology already in the first phase, thinking out the purpose and so on, and using it for strategy, designing the process as well, and then experience the process in the implementation phase. And now I’m curious, because for me I’m not sure if it really makes sense to apply your methodology to the steering phase. So if we are talking about steering a process execution, for example, at different locations, typically you’re using indicators or just gut feeling if everything is running smooth as it’s supposed to be. But how would you do this? How would you support the steering phase?

Martin: 31:55

To us, it’s beside all these more technical key factors and indicators to steer the process. You talked a lot about these social gatherings and having really reflections. Where is the process? Gatherings and having really reflections, where is the process? And still, there is the chance of showing up how the people really reflect.

Martin: 32:16

Again, we would go back to material and show up how they are in the process now, what works, what is really well implemented, um, kind as to be a set before these kind of treasures, and what is really a obstacle. Now and try to think and, yeah, shape it, make it visible and even it’s always important when we have these really pictures on an idona landscape or physical, in objects represented, what is the problem and what is the opportunity to improve in a case. It’s really nice to see it if you use a huge desk when you ask, okay, what is needed to move on or to improve it? How can we really rearrange the whole picture to a better, more smooth process? That is, yeah, a next step here and this is, I think, in this phase and as a collective, something really nice to to experience and try to work on it. So it’s again a kind of co-creation together.

Martin: 33:24

I think it’s something wonderful and just an alternative is really to me, a kind of shaping an object together that represents the process really, more than a kind of artistic way to show up what are the aspects of the process to everybody in a team and really take it as a symbol together back to the daily life in the company and see this is working. There was this thing that made us stop in many times in the process, so and we really improved it. So this and there’s a physical artifact that you can take with you. Yeah, as to beer, said before also, it has this functionality of a storage and can be recalled again.

Mirko: 34:11

Yeah, I love this physical artifact idea. Yeah, that’s so cool to have something you can really experience, you can touch. When talking about process, often processes are not really touchable, so it’s really hard to grasp the idea. That’s cool, wow. And what about improvement then afterwards? I think this is easy or using prototypes, improved process, or how would you do this?

Martin: 34:42

I think for me, redesigning and implementing, executing the improvements we come a bit back to the steps before. I mean, still, it’s the chance of making it a prototype from based as before in the original design process. We have again the same opportunities and possibilities here. Yeah, absolutely.

Mirko: 35:02

Yeah, that’s so fascinating and the more I understand how you’re doing this and what you’re doing, the more it makes sense for me to apply it throughout the whole life cycle, so you can use these methodologies in all the different phases and they will build up on each other and this will really help to let the people experience the process, even if it’s just an administrative process which is hard to experience in reality normally. That’s cool, wow, love it. And applying your overall experience to rethinking processes. Now what are your top three recommendations? To get to a more human-centric BPM approach and to inspire people for processes Both of you, maybe we get to six recommendations in total, or you just have one and one, or who would like to start?

Tobias: 35:52

so the top recommendation is, yeah, finding the right question up front. So what is really the thing to achieve? But then get off the straight path and try to find the answers, yeah, yeah, somewhere in the bushes around and not on the past you mentioned up front.

Martin: 36:13

Yeah, and I think it’s another thing is this kind of co-creation with a really diverse group of people. You know processes many times have so many different roles, departments or even companies involved. Bringing them all together to create this picture opens up the people really to the bigger picture, I say many times and also creates this kind of belonging to the people and in that case also the engagement. So it is for me still the chance of finding an innovative and new approach together in the group okay, and is there?

Tobias: 36:55

a third recommendation the last one yeah, get into doing and turn abstract topics into physical prototypes so you and the others can grasp it so in the really tangible physical way, but also like being able to understand it better.

Mirko: 37:15

Yeah, that’s so cool. I really love your approach. And, to wrap it up, you gave so many examples, but what is your key message to our listeners? To rethink process, just from your perspective.

Tobias: 37:30

Yeah transforming processes and its environments into different materialities opens up a new perspective and chances for insights, and if you achieve this in a co-creative manner, it creates belonging. And if you create artifacts on the way, they can become a container of the core idea that you can recall, also on the way later again.

Mirko: 37:55

Okay, and Martin, what about you?

Martin: 37:57

Yeah, at the end it’s making makes sense. We say many times, making is thinking To believe. Really, with the approach about material in digital dominated times, offers another insight to the people and this is something we should use in a more intense way. I think it can really enrich our digital lives and offers new projects, new opportunities and new ways to get to a more innovative solution.

Mirko: 38:31

Yeah Well, that’s cool. Thank you for this wrap-up. I think it’s super inspiring and we definitely have to follow up on this. So maybe we can host a live session on new process pro after the podcast is released, or maybe we can even find the process architect out there who says, yeah, let’s try it out with my process. We can set up a workshop format to really really experience the process and get from from doing to thinking I love this, what you are doing, and where can our listeners learn more about what you are doing?

Martin: 39:06

Yeah, feel welcome, as Mirko said, to try with us. Either we meet somewhere outside or just if you pass by Linz, you’re always welcome in our lab. And besides this, this, we have website, mkrsetat, or even on LinkedIn, we post at mkrset lab. That’s where you can find us and get more information about it.

Mirko: 39:34

I’ll put the links into the show notes so people can easily reach out to you. That’s cool. I don’t know if our contacts are there links into the show notes, so people can easily reach out to you.

Martin: 39:40

That’s, that’s cool, yeah, and I don’t know if our contacts are there. Emails are welcome anytime as well, of course okay, that’s perfect.

Mirko: 39:50

And, um, which topic or method or expert would you recommend to me or to the whole new process community to take a closer look at, to get new ideas on rethinking processes? So could be something completely different to what we just talked about. Is there something you would recommend to have a closer look at?

Tobias: 40:12

yeah, topic I’m pretty much into right now which is not another direct course, but we touch it now and then is storytelling.

Tobias: 40:21

So, yeah, anna laura, our common friend, is also pretty much into this topic and we just visited them beyond storytelling camp.

Tobias: 40:30

So we are really full of ideas and somehow we want to also experience with micro narratives and stuff like this, and I really recommend everybody to go into this topic because I think, especially in processes, the storytelling might be a core foundation and in our case, it supports the material version of it, but I think it’s also a pretty, pretty huge tool on its own, and especially what I really think it’s also a pretty pretty huge tool on its own, and especially what I really think it’s worth worth to look at is joseph kempel and his hero journey. Oh, yeah. So yeah, I extracted the 12 steps, or he even more, and it was boiled down to that yes, here’s the book. Right, you have it. So I really believe in the storytelling topic and especially, as in this yeah, here’s journey, there might be a lot of potential to also work in this area of processes, as it’s the super process, the hero process. You might also apply to your business processes.

Mirko: 41:41

Yeah, that’s cool. Since the conference, I have the book next to my desk. So maybe some of our listeners might remember the episode with Ole Tillmann where I said that his book it’s hard to see here right now, but anyways, the people are listening. It’s Beyond the Obvious, it’s Agile Presentation Design, an Innovator’s Guide to More Impactful Presentations. I said in the interview with Ole, that’s the only book I have. I hardly read books Normally I don’t and that’s the only book I have next to my desk. But since the conference, because it was a recommendation by Julia von Winterfeld, another guest a few episodes ago, she said have a closer look at this. I bought this as a present for the Barcamp session speakers and one for me.

Speaker: 42:29

So that’s why I have this here as well.

Mirko: 42:31

That’s cool, yeah, thank you yeah.

Martin: 42:35

Yeah, and I can add something. It’s when people talk a lot about engagement and transparency for processes and also organization strategies. I really know that for myself. It’s organizing or looking at the organizational form and look for more circle-based and less hierarchy-based organizational forms. So I talk about sociocracy. Yeah, this offers much more transparency and empowers people to really act in their own circles without having permanently the question of releasing something. So I do believe into the power of this, of releasing something. So I do believe into the power of this and, as I experienced it also personally, that makes organizations more agile. And also, when it’s about adaptation of processes and business processes, you can be really much more faster.

Martin: 43:34

This decision is up to the circle how you adapt the roles and processes. This really has a chance to improve. Yeah, what I know from my personal experience it’s quite resource intensive, from setting it up to go through a whole accuracy process. It takes a lot of resources, but at the end it really offers something. And don’t forget about really the clear leadership roles, even in circles. There is no way out that people have clear responsibilities still, wow, cool something to add.

Mirko: 44:11

So many cool ideas, inspirations. Luckily, I’m going on a family vacation next week, so I will have some days to process all the ideas, to think about what I just learned, and then we, we have to dive deeper into what you are doing. That’s, that’s so cool. But before we leave this episode, is there anything else you would like to share with our listeners? Is there anything we have missed?

Martin: 44:36

yeah, but it’s something that is on your website and it’s your eight principles. I think it really makes sense and I really love them. So look at them and just keep them. It helps a lot when you make process rethink them. That’s very important from my point of view.

Tobias: 44:59

Yeah, and I think from our side there would be a lot more to share. As you heard already, we are long talkers, for sure, but I think there is not enough space in the podcast, maybe next time?

Mirko: 45:14

Yeah, maybe we’re going to record a part two, or we’re just going to have a live session on New Process Pro. I think we haven’t really talked about that yet, but we just have to record a part two, or we’re just going to have a live session on new process pro. I think that’s. We haven’t really talked about that yet, but we just have to do it. Yeah, yeah, thumbs up. That’s super cool. So, before we really leave the episode, how would you describe your flight experience here with just three words? Who would like to start? Tobias?

Tobias: 45:38

Let’s do it. I’m looking forward to apply our methods in a new process. Yeah, me too.

Mirko: 45:49

Wow, thank you so much. That was so inspiring talking to you and I’m really looking forward to diving deeper into what you’re doing. Thank you so much for being my guest today. Looking forward, have a great day, bye-bye, bye.

Martin: 46:05

Thanks for being here, thanks for having me.

Speaker: 50:44

newprocesslab.

Mirko: 46:12

Wow, what an inspiring conversation. There are so many ideas coming to my mind on how to apply these makers methods to processes, so let’s recap the conversation quickly. Basically, martin and Tobias are using wires, ropes, tape, pieces of wood, paper and cardboard, as well as the room they are working in, to think with your hands, to get from doing to thinking. So I have at least three key learnings. The first one is to use body prototyping to reflect on specific questions, such as building a belief as an extension of your body, to express what is hindering you, for example. That’s so fascinating. I really love their principle of starting from yourself, and prototyping seems to be a fascinating approach to me. Second, while talking about the phases of new process lifecycle, I realized that their makers methodology can be applied throughout all phases of new process lifecycle, so all phases of the process of process management. For example, to express the values and beliefs of the process community in the process purpose phase, to visualize where you are right now, or to even build a target picture of where you are going to in the strategy phase. You can use it to build prototypes of the process in the design phase. You can use it to build prototypes of the process in the design phase, to really experience the process and to build a common understanding or even the physical artifact of a process, which is normally difficult to grasp right. So I’m really fascinated of this idea, and you can also use it to come together and use this physical artifact to create a common understanding for the implementation of the process, or even to steal process execution. And, for sure, you can use their maker’s methods to improve process execution as well.

Mirko: 48:19

And my third learning is the power of the physical artifact. As I already said, you know I’m a huge fan of using process models to create a common picture, a common understanding. But creating physical artifact to express a process, to bring a process to life, that idea is so fascinating to me. Yeah, one could develop this in a strategy or design phase, then use it for implementation or even process execution, something people can take into their hands, put it onto their desk or even throw it against the wall. Well, that’s so cool and I’d love to try it out. Try this out for a real business process.

Mirko: 49:04

So if you also find Martin’s and Tobias’ approach exciting and you are responsible for a process, please get in touch with me so that we can try to find a way to try out the maker’s methods, to experience how to rethink processes with your hands. Or you can join the deep dive session with Martin and Tobias on New Process Pro. Yes, we are going to host a live session to dig deeper into the maker’s approach. It’ll be the first time ever that we’ll have a live session as an extension of the podcast, so make sure you don’t miss this. To find out more, just go to newprocesslabcom slash pro and take a look at the events section there. In the next deep dive episode of the New Process Podcast, we’ll explore another, to me very spooky topic. We’ll talk about psychology and BPM. So stay tuned and follow the New Process podcast. But for now, thank you very much for listening. Have a fantastic day. Bye-bye and auf Wiedersehen.

Mirko: 50:24

Before you leave. As you might know, I’m doing a lot of research on how to rethink process and how to get people excited about process. If you would like to find out more about how to do this, you can download my free new process checklist, which provides plenty of ideas on how to push your process to the next level. To download it, just go to newprocesslabcom/checklist. Thank you very much. Bye-bye.