How to inspire different generations for processes with Leona Holzbecher

How to inspire different generations for processes with Leona Holzbecher

#048 Let’s consider the different generations in terms of processes.

In this episode, I’m talking to Leona Holzbecher about how different generations influence change and transformation. We take a deep dive into the categorization of the different generations and look for stereotypical characteristics that can lead to conflict.

How can this diversity be used to get people excited about processes? And how can we inspire different generations for processes? Let’s find out…

Today’s Guest:

Leona Holzbecher

Leona is a psychologist and systemic coach and has just started her own business “Leona Holzbecher Consulting” to coach companies and people to rethink their why from a psychological perspective.

She has a lot of experience in change management in a large corporation.

Leona holds a Master’s degree in Psychology and has completed trainings in System Intervention and Organizational Development and Transformation.

I met Leona at the Hello.Beta live event in Hamburg last year and I really liked her Barcamp session on “Leading across Generations”. — And we just had to record a separate podcast episode to dive deeper into this.

You’ll learn:

  • What the different generations are
  • How they are categorized
  • What the stereotypes and conflicts of the different generations are
  • How this affects the work environment in general
  • What we as process guys can learn from this to get different generations excited about processes


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Please note that the transcript was generated automatically and only slightly adjusted. It does not claim to be a perfect transcription.


Yeah, welcome to episode 48 of the New Process Podcast. To episode 48 of the New Process Podcast. Today, it’s all about how to inspire different generations, like Gen Y or Gen Z, for processes. Therefore, I’m talking to Leona Holzbecher. Leona is a psychologist and systemic coach and she has just started her own business, leona Holzbecher Consulting, to coach companies and people to rethink their why from a psychological perspective. She has a lot of experience in change management in a large corporation. Leona holds a master’s degree in psychology and has completed trainings in system intervention and organizational development and transformation. 


I met Leona at the Hello Beta live event in Hamburg last year and I really liked her Barcamp session on leading across generations. 


Maybe you remember we already had briefly talked about this in the New Process Podcast episode number 40, summarizing that event, and after this I had so many thoughts in my head to put these aspects in relationship to processes, so I just had to ask her to do an episode on this topic and I’m super happy that she agreed. So this episode will put the topic of different generations on your radar and it will provide you with all the things you need to know. You’ll learn what the different generations are, how they are categorized and what is typical for each of these generations and what is typical for each of these generations. We’re going to talk about the stereotypes and conflicts of the different generations, how this affects the work environment in general and what we, as process guys, can learn from this to get different generations excited about processes. We are talking about many examples and you will get countless ideas to take different generations into account regarding processes, so enjoy the interview with Leona Holzbecher. 


And now let’s start to rethink processes. 


Yeah, welcome to the new process podcast, Leona. It’s great to have you here after we met at the Beta Hub Barcamp event end of last year. We already had a short conversation on leading across generations, but now a whole episode, so welcome to New Process Podcast Leona. 


Thank you, happy to be here. 


Yeah, great to have you and I’m really looking forward to the conversation. It’s a little bit ramp up for your expert session at the new process conference in april, so warm up today. But there you’ll talk about different topics, so today we can focus on different generations. But before let’s start with a check-in, so, as always, first check-in question what do you prefer in an aircraft, aisle or window seat? 


I would say aisle, because I don’t know if you know this very uncomfortable feeling of you need to go on toilet and then you have to climb over everyone sitting next to you and I really prefer moving whenever I want to move. 


Therefore, aisle yeah, good choice, perfect. And what is your favorite airport? 


for me, actually, it’s nuremberg, and because I’m living there and I really also, after traveling, I love the feeling of coming home and arriving there again. So I would say nuremberg, yeah, and it’s also like very good connected to many countries so you can fly like from everywhere to there and back and forth, which is great too. 


Yeah, yeah yeah, I also like nuremberg. It’s pretty small airport but a nice one, and you can get quickly out of the aircraft to your rental car. And then I always drove to university of bamberg where I had a  lecture and things like that in the past, so that was always nice flying via Nuremberg and not comparable with Frankfurt, and I really got lost the last time I was there looking for the bus station yeah, to Seeheim and they did some. 


Yeah, when I went to Seeheim and they did some reconstruction from the bus station and I was like, oh, where is this now? And it was, and I think it really took me 45 minutes after leaving the train to get there, okay, just because it was far away, and then I got lost, yeah. So, nunberg, yeah, that’s the place okay, that’s good. 


I have to check that out before we travel to seeheim for the conference. I’m going by car from Hamburg, but there will be some participants flying into Frankfurt and then taking the shuttle bus, so I’ll have to talk to Volker to get all the information. But okay, that’s great and we’ll see where this will lead to. But final check-in question what was the best process you have ever experienced? 


For me, actually, it’s the PayPal process and how PayPal is connected everywhere. I feel like it’s very easy to pay and to buy with PayPal, so I really like the process behind it and the PayPal app, and I really think that with this, you don’t need to take care or become so much concerned about security of your personal money and data. So this is very nice. I like it. It changed my life. 


That’s great. Okay, a lot of my s have financial processes as their best process they have ever experienced, so a shout out to the financial guys out here listening to the podcast we’re working on these processes. That’s. That’s cool, great job. Yeah, and my favorite question how would you describe your relationship to processes? 


I would say it’s kind of spicy. So they create a lot of emotions in myself and yeah, as I’m a psychologist, I’m, of course, always looking into the topics that are getting also very tense, spicy and emotional, and I think that’s exactly what often happens with processes. Also, people often say that that is something boring. They nevertheless create or activate a lot of emotions okay, that’s interesting. 


So you’re working as a freelancer as well, besides your normal job. So what do you do at leona holzbechering? 


So, as I said, I’m a psychologist and, on top of that, an organizational developer, and with my freelancing business, I would like to bring topics around psychology more connected into business context. That’s why I’m, for example, also talking to you today, or also at the New Processes Conference then in April, because we try to, or I try to consider even more how important it is to bring a human or more people-focused perspective into every kind of topic and with Leona Holzbecher Consulting, I try to bring this even closer to the people in different formats. Right now, I really prefer doing keynotes, because I think this is a great way of creating emotions and bringing messages across very quickly, but I also do team development workshops and so on yeah, okay, and bar camp sessions, yes yes, that’s where we met right beta, hello beta event. 


Yeah, that’s, that’s interesting. So there, as I already said, you yes true, that’s where we met right, beta, hello Beta event. Yeah, that’s interesting. So there, as I already said, you ed a Barcamp session on leading across generations. To be honest, I haven’t had that topic on my radar for a while, for a long time, and can you just give us an overview what this topic is all about? Leading across generations? What are the different generations? How are they categorized? What is this all about? Leading across? 


generations. What are the different generations? How are they categorized? What is this all about? So right now, it is stated that until 2030, around 693 million baby boomers are leaving the job market, and this is a big number and a lot, and that’s why it’s so important to talk about the different generations that we are having right now in the workforce and, especially, looking into the future. How are we, how are organizations, companies, dealing with this huge, huge gap that is coming along when baby boomers are leaving the workforce? So right now, we are having four different generations at the job market the baby boomers and which are close to retirement. 


Then we have gen x, gen y and also gen set already, and probably it’s the same for you, but in the discussions that you also read on social media in regards to the topic of generations, you often see like only baby boomers confronted with Gen Z and the other two generations, like Gen X, gen Y, they are somehow forgotten, but of course, they are also there. So the four different generations which are having a lot of different shaping influences. So I don’t know if you know what a generation per term means, but it’s actually related to, of course, people born in the same time but also are having nearly the same age but on top of that, also are having the same influences, and the shaping influences is what also then develops their values and course influences their behaviors. And when we are looking at the shaping influences, we see a lot of differences between the generations, which is then also reflected in different understandings of work, work life balance, work mentality, values at work, etc okay, so you already mentioned the four generations which we have right now in the job market. 


So I’m born 1981. I always claimed that that’s already generation Y. Is that true? So where are the official borders of the generations, or from where to where do they span? 


Yeah. So there are many different concepts out there and many different studies. So generations are dynamic constructs, so they are somehow defined, but also there’s a lot of room for definition, I would say. So what I am often referring to is that baby boomers are born between 1951 and 1965. We have the Gen X born between 1960 and until 1980. Then we have Gen Y, so this is between 1981 and 1995. So I, for example, have been born in 1995. So I would count myself into Gen Y. And then we have Gen Z and they are born between 1996 until 2010. And after 2010, we have the alpha generation. But I am, like, for example, pretty close to Gen Z also. So that’s what I also stated in our pre-discussion that depending with who I’m talking to and what the topic is about, I sometimes count myself into being Gen Z or Gen Y, and that depends on how I can get a better success in my debate. 


That’s super interesting. I always debated that I’m Gen Y already, but that’s super interesting. So, looking back at the time when I was born, so when I learned about computers and so on, and when I compare that to my daughter, who’s turning 12 on Friday and she’s then she’s born in 2012. So it’s funny, yeah. And that’s generation alpha right. I just learned that? 


Yeah, that’s generation alpha. She’s not yet at the workforce or the work market right, so yeah not yet, but yeah, get prepared for gen alpha. I could tell you something completely different. 


Yeah, yeah just fun fact. She’s having a math exam on friday, on her birthday. She hates that for sure, and she’s just practicing the tasks on the ipad. Now there is an app which they are using and I said lena, sit down and write down the assignments on paper. Yeah, you need to write that on paper. And she looked at me and said papa, yeah, how old are you? Yeah, I said okay let’s just give it up. 


That was strange. Okay, that’s, that’s interesting. Yeah, very funny. So what are the main findings regarding the conflicts between these generations? Or yeah, especially with regards to management levels, for example, or in a company organization? 


yeah, I think, maybe kind of a disclaimer here, what is very important, and what I have also experienced when I raised the topic of generation and companies, is that we have to be very sensitive here because, of course, if someone is part of one generation doesn’t necessarily truly mean that the person is exactly how the stereotype of the generation is described right. Of course, generations are dynamic constructs and they help us. When we are talking about generations, we can, in the talk about it, reduce complexity by appealing to the different generations, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that a person is like this and that for sure just because of being part of the generation. It’s just said that people in one generation, because of born at the same period in time, they have the same shaping influences and therefore it’s a higher percentage of people being more like this or that. But especially when we are talking about conflicts and triggers between humans in organizations, it’s very important to step out a little bit out of those stereotypes that we are having, because what’s happening right now, and what I see pretty often, is that conflicts are already there without conflicts being really discussed, meaning that I get phrases said such as yeah, there is someone in my team and, by the way, it’s a baby boomer. 


How should I talk to this person? They would never understand me. And then I ask back have you spoken to the person already? No, because I would not even start doing that, for example. And what I mean by that is also there are correlations that people in the same generations are identifying the same. It doesn’t necessarily mean so. It’s always worth it to look beyond the surface here. It doesn’t necessarily mean so. It’s always worth it to look beyond the surface here Because, like age as an aspect of diversity I don’t know if you, for example, know the iceberg of diversity, which is a very interesting and nice model to describe the different aspects of diversity. 


No, I know several iceberg models, but not of diversity. Tell me more. 


I mean we can maybe share a link in the chat on that. Yeah sure, but it’s sad that there are some aspects that are pretty visible that differ between people, for example age. Of course, when I look at you right now, I would not say that you are a different generation than I am, and for some people, when you look, at gray hair oh my god. 


For some people you see that they are older or younger, right. The same is with the nationality and so on. But there is like a borderline of visibility. So the part of the iceberg that is beyond the surface, and there we have a lot of different other aspects, for example, value system. So, as an example, there can be people with a completely different age but still having the same value system. So it doesn’t necessarily mean, just because a person is different to you from what you see from the outside, that the person actually is different, right, and that’s described in this iceberg model of diversity that you should not only look at what is visible for you should also look beyond the surface. We can share a link on that in the chat. 


Yeah cool, and that’s the same that happens with generations. So you see someone older than you and maybe a lot older than you, you categorize the person as baby boomer and then directly, automatically, some thoughts, some stereotypes, some biases are evolving, and they do not necessarily have to be true. Also, it can happen that they are true, right? So typical stereotypes for baby boomers are that they are a lot of very unspontaneous, very hierarchical colleagues who always stick to the rules, who always follow processes, who are not flexible anymore. So when they are working a lot, they don’t have a work-life balance. Work is the most important thing for them. So this is like very stereotypically related to baby boomers various the the gen set is more self-confident, individualistic. They are looking at work-life balance, but more looking at the life and work-life balance because they don’t want to work anymore and things like that. And I think it’s good that we have those categories, but we should also really talk sensitively about it. I think that’s pretty important okay, so they’re obviously. 


When we’re just looking at the stereotypes, conflicts arising right now, because probably most management levels are baby boomers or generation x people just based on time development in the hierarchy, especially in larger corporations, maybe different exactly. And now younger generations, gen z, is coming from university, coming to the organizations, but with different expectations, and is it true that this leads to conflict or is this just something? 


yeah, no, it’s definitely true, because where stereotypes are, there’s always like some proof behind it. So exactly so. In larger companies, you have this sonority principle, that said that you are just allowed to get into a specific position and after you have reached a specific age or a specific hierarchy level. So that’s for sure that they are like, mostly at the upper management, people from the same generation and not in the lower management position. And the typical conflicts that are right now arising is what I have also already noted the topic of work mentality. 


So there are big conflicts and discussion around what does work mean for me? What am I looking for when I’m going to work? What helps me or motivates me to stand up every day? And then the second big conflict is actually the language. 


So generations and language have changed over time, so there’s a completely different way of communicating with each other and also what terms and words you are using. So I just had that last time again and I sometimes caught myself into Gen Z, but still I was asked what was the term? Do you know what risk means? You have such great risk? And I was like, huh, what do I have risk? Yeah, you have great risk, and I just like I did not know if it is a comp, has been a compliment or anything else. And then I asked and it was a colleague from chancet, meaning wrist is comes from charisma and this is something you say to people who have a friendly attitude and I was like, oh nice, that’s a compliment actually. Thank you, but I would not even know it. 


So language and ways of communication have our lead to a lot of conflicts, and especially the different channels and technologies and media that is used. Okay, so you see a lot of differences there. To baby boomers, rather preferring still preferring emails and more structured ways of communicating. Various other generations prefer social media channels and more faster, more honest and more direct communication, Okay, and when we’re not talking about processes? 


processes are often perceived as super boring and nobody wants to work according to documented processes. Does the view on processes or the importance of processes differ between the generations? Just in? 


general connoted, especially to the younger generation, because, when you look at the wishes, the dreams that they have, they would like to have a workplace which is very innovative and fast changing, or they also see this as a prerequisite of every work place that they want to be in. 


And processes just the term process, so to say is often connected to being more strict, not easy to be changed or, as you mentioned already, boring. 


But still, I think that if you would look also here, below the surface, that different generations actually have a different view on processes, because I think, when you look and that’s what, as a psychologist, I always like to do when you look, and that’s what, as a psychologist, I always like to do when you look at the need that should be fulfilled with a process, I actually think that the different generations want the same need to be fulfilled, and processes can definitely do that, but it’s not easy to talk about it. So, for example, the need for stability stability, in case of that something is, let’s, protective and clear and easy to understand. This might probably be a need that all generations have in common, which can, for some processes, be definitely fulfilled. And then there are other needs that, for example, the need for fast change or agile way of understanding, which are not that easy to be fulfilled with some processes. But that’s also the same for different generations, so I think we should be careful not to blame too much here. 


Okay, and what would you recommend to a person being accountable for a process, a process which is executed by a larger number of employees, employees from different generations. What would you recommend to that person to get all generations involved right from the beginning in the different phases, so, for example, within the design of a process, to integrate them there, or with regards to communication, or to get feedback from the people, just as examples? 


Yeah. So I think processes as such should be more related to human needs, right, and that applies for all generations. So, because the needs of I would like to have influence or impact on what I’m doing, so there should be kind of a fulfillment in the area of control, in the area of attachment, in the area of self-enhancement, in the area of joy. That’s actually the same for all generations. So what I would say is processes should create more positive experiences so that we are really feeling the dopamine somehow that is getting out of processes. 


And for the different stages because you mentioned, for example, the designing stage of the process or the modeling stage of a process I think you should, for example, really check if in the design process, the people that are involved, if that are people from different generations or not. So is your design group somehow age diverse or heterogeneous? Because when you have different people from different generations already in the designing process, you can really, at an early stage of implementation, you can cover up all the questions that would then probably arise later. And I would also say that you should start kind of a greenfield approach. So what I see in process design nowadays in companies is that there is one way to go, how it has been done in the past, and different specific steps are followed, as they have also been followed in the past, and what I really would recommend is maybe you should start with a greenfield approach and a more open-minded brainstorming meaning. 


I don’t know if you, for example, know the walt disney method, which is a typical brainstorming method you know, do you know it, it’s yeah, you put on like the dreamer hat and then you put on the realistic hat and then you put on the more critic hat, and I would love to see that actually also in designing processes, that a diverse group and also age diverse group of people is starting a greenfield approach and just dreaming what could be fulfilled in a dreamy world with a process and then step by step tying it down and also often like look at the end users, so what is the target group of people who is using the process in the end? Maybe you should also try to get them on board pretty early, especially end users from then younger generations also, so that not only the process architects are involved, but also the process users. Okay, in the implementation field, yeah that’s super interesting. 


To be honest, I haven’t had this generation diversity topic on my list. With regards to diversity, now I’m talking a lot about when you set up workshop teams, that you make sure that you have people from different locations with different cultural background, and so on, but I never thought about generations before. I just wrote that down, so that definitely has to be part of the process to, for example, if you’re going to develop process purpose and you set up a team or you develop a new process design and make sure that the team is diverse. Also with regards to generations, that’s super interesting cool yeah, also especially like for asking for feedback. 


So when the process is maybe redesigned after it has been implemented, that you also really be careful with whom you’re asking for feedback and that you also try to ask very age-diverse here over and over again. I think that’s something where the Gen Z or younger generations are coming with very great inspiration for process implementation, because they are often following a very community-based way of implementing change, meaning that it’s very direct, very personal, very human-centered like. Processes are not just processes, but processes are very referring to the people behind it. So what I see in organizations is that then suddenly another really engaged group is popping up with process XY and then people are giving feedback, are communicating, are talking, and this very fast and very direct way of communicating is more, I would say, human centered and therefore all the generations can learn here a lot. 


So this should be used as well okay, so just to get, they can learn from gen z. Right, that’s what you said, or yeah, they can learn from gen c? 


yeah, because what the older generations have been trained is a more top down way of implementation, meaning the upper management is deciding something and then the upper management thinks okay, when I send out now this email on the new process with the title new process is rolled out, please use it now. 


And I am sending this out because I am the head of the organization, I’m so sure everyone would follow. A GNC colleague gets the email knowing that it has been sent by someone from the upper management and it doesn’t mean that there is no respect. But it’s not the same as it has been 10 to 15 years ago that you just follow what the upper management is like. Recommending you to do it’s not having the same visibility anymore. Recommending you to do it’s not having the same visibility anymore. So what is more important right now is to also implement processes bottom up, meaning that people on peer level are already involved and that you can see from people that are very similar to you how they are using the process. And this is this community-based approach. So more on the same hierarchy level, you learn from each other instead of just pushing it and top down okay, yeah, that’s. 


That’s super interesting, because one thing I’m pushing forward is to develop your process community. So if you are a process owner or as a process architect, working on a specific business process, it’s super important to identify your process community. So who are the people executing the roles in your process? And what I haven’t had on my radar up to now is also looking at the different generations there. So that’s something I definitely will take into account in the future. So thanks for this inspiration here. That’s super interesting. 


So thanks for this inspiration here. That’s super interesting. 


Yeah, for sure You’d say that Gen Z is more community-oriented compared to other generations, right? 


Yeah, which doesn’t mean that the baby boomers are not, but I would say Gen Z is more trained in a community-based way of communicating because that’s how they have been grown up right. Therefore it’s easier for them. Probably they know that you do not have to answer all the text messages that you’re receiving because they haven’t managed it anyhow. For baby boomers, sometimes they feel pressured in answering directly because they have this inner wish of answering directly, because they have this inner wish of I really want to respond to everyone in a pretty speed of time and when I don’t do this very quick, this might be disrespectful and younger generations are more like huh, I have never made it to answer all my messages in a very quick amount of time, so this isn’t disrespectful. I think they they know a little bit or they are a little bit better trained for implementing community-based process, a project yeah, okay, that’s interesting. 


I always try to enter to at least to my emails within 24 hours, so linkedin messages is a little bit harder. And whenever I visit my parents, yeah, and the phone rings, my mother has a need to answer that exactly independent from if we’re just having dinner or whatever she’s doing, she has to go take the phone and answer the call. I just say no why. 


But that’s interesting, that’s also like how you’re raised and what your values are, and therefore I think it’s very, very important to look at the way of communication, especially also for processes, because different target groups need different ways of communicating, and there’s also a lot of room for improvement, because you can really learn a lot from how is the younger generation communicating because it’s not everything perfect also how gen z is communicating, right so and there are a lot of misunderstandings arising from language and then also, especially in virtual communication, you can interpret a lot so that you don’t know if someone not using emojis is just angry. That’s very difficult for gen z, for example, to reflect when you’re not using emojis. They don’t understand what you have been writing okay, that’s interesting. 


I mean, from time to time I’m using emojis, maybe a little bit too often but I guess the same when I’m texting my mom and she is using emojis. 


I’m just like they don’t really mean what you probably want them to mean. But thank you so much. Yeah, but that’s also like very important topic. I mean, would you use emojis in a communication around a new process, for example? Yeah, I would yeah today, I would think yeah, today I would. Do you think company yeah, today you would. Because of the younger generation, I don’t know. 


Asking for it or Just because I like it. I like to add some smileys, good old days Of color. To my emails as well, and I try to reduce that in emails to a minimum, but I think that helps to get more emotions into the written text and so on. Yeah, I personally really like that and you can see that in my LinkedIn post that I often have some emojis there as well, still like emojis and processes. 


How does that go together? I would say for some it’s probably difficult to connect. 


But yeah, you’re right, we should, we should actually I haven’t seen emojis in process documentation up to now, so writing like this would be amazing, right yeah, yeah, yeah but only if the process is good. 


That would be a game changer if not you would also only get those aggressive red-headed smileys in the process documentation. But how funny would that be. Like that you write something like you have to do step one, two, three, four and then. I know this takes so much time, but you will get through it. Something like this in a process documentation maybe would help yeah, absolutely. 


I already thought about having an episode on rethinking writing process descriptions, so not just mapping the process itself having the flow there with the activities and so on. But when you then go a level deeper, go into the details of one activity, we often write a text do this and that and so on. Make sure to follow these and that steps, but I never used emojis there. And even talking about emotions, there’s something which I’ve never seen and that might be cool. 


That would be actually a good to motivate the people yeah, keep on going. 


I know it’s hard, but you’ll make it to check all the incoming parts here, whatever yeah yeah, and also like making negative emotion transparent in communication around processes, because what I see pretty often that only like processes are mainly sold as successes and, of course, like they should, because if a process has the right why behind it, it hopefully makes things easier. But nevertheless a change and it could also be a process that on the long term makes things easier for you, makes them at the short term first more difficult for you because you have to adapt to the change. So I would love to see more negative emotion communication in process communication yeah, definitely. 


That’s something we have to put on the agenda for the future. That’s super cool. And applying your overall experience to rethinking processes, what are your top three recommendations to get to a more human-centric bpm approach? 


and to inspire people for processes. Actually, I have four recommendations. Okay, yeah, that’s fine, when you design, consider, implement whatever process. Number one is let the target group experience control. So develop the process based on participation and always allow feedback loops. So give the people the feeling of I have a control of what is happening here right now. It’s not that someone is just top down pushing the process over me and I just have to follow. Also, I don’t want to. No, I feel like I’m having the control somehow also to respond to what is happening from the outside. Then the second would be create some joy. So let them experience joy, let them experience dopamine. 


As we said, have a more emotion-focused communication, send some hearts, but also give them the feeling of they are heard. So, of course, when you have frustrated people that are not following a process and they’re getting the third or fourth email of do it now, do it now. You’re already late. Of course this might be one way of trying to get them on board, but maybe and that’s what I’m also saying sometimes it doesn’t make sense to punish people. It’s better to create positive experiences for them, because also our brain. So punishment means you’re avoiding something. So you see the email where you read out a lot of anger and frustration, and from your boss, for example, and you are like, oh my God, I have done something wrong so you avoid it. But if there is something on the other side that creates joy or positive experiences, we don’t have to do anything. People would go there because they want to, because that’s how our brain is wiring right. 


So what can you do to create joy in the process? Maybe we need more better kickoff events. Maybe it’s more fun events, also in process, feedback workshops or nice tools like the tools in which processes are dispelled. Maybe not clickable PDFs, right? Maybe not. Maybe something interactive, maybe something that in the moment creates fun. Maybe something interactive, maybe something that in the moment creates fun. 


Then the third one is let them experience attachment, meaning make the why clear. So how does this process contribute to the larger purpose of the company? And because there’s a reason for them to follow. And the biggest reason is why are you here in this company? This is our company purpose, that’s why you are attached to the company and this is how the process is contributing here. And the last one is self enhancement. So people are very egocentric, so they, in everything they do they always call this effective altruism? Everyone is saying, yeah, I’m nice because I like being nice, but actually it’s also effectively used. So you are nice because it also gives you something nice back, hopefully. And for processes I would, for example, see make process owners more visible, make process architects more visible, make processes and successes more visible. So no one is really celebrating processes or making them really visible in organizations, but this is giving a lot of self-enhancement for the people who have put so much work into it. 


That’s great. And just to wrap it up, what is your key message to our listeners? To rethink processes. 


I would say my key message is humans are structured, simple, so create positive experiences with processes and from a change management perspective, I really would recommend to do smaller experiments. So what we are often doing is, when we plan a change that is implemented, that we just focus on the big, big, big end goal implemented, that we just focus on the big, big, big end goal and we always say, do it and in the end you will feel a change. But what is actually more effective is some smaller experience also on the way. So is there a way somehow where you can bring them very quick wins or very quick benefits from a process also in between? Also the end goal so, so to say, is not yet reached. Can you kind of split it a little bit? I would say yeah. 


Cool. Thank you, Jonah. That’s super inspiring and besides quickly buying tickets for the new process conference to join your session on day two, where can our listeners learn about your activities? Learn more about your activities? 


so you can follow me on linkedin. I’m also posting there somehow yeah, quite successful maybe we can put. Yeah, I really like doing some linkedin posts or resharing of others. I love linkedin, so I’m very active there and of course, you can send me an email always. Maybe we can put my email also in the show notes and you can just contact me there if you want. 


I’m looking there too, yeah yeah, but first choice would be to buy a ticket for the new process. 


Exactly, that’s true to meet you in person. 


I try to create a lot of positive experiences during my session and a lot of joy, so you should definitely get there. 


Absolutely. That’s going to be a really inspiring session at the end of the conference, so that’s super cool. So one final more or less content-related question which I’m asking all my s is which topic, method, tool or expert would you recommend to me or to the new process community to have a closer look on to the dopamine and how our brain is working and how we should consider? 


that in change management and in process as well. And there is a book called Neuro Change by Marcus Cumming and I really really like his thought and fuse on a more evolutionary rooted way of implementing change, which fits pretty well to my message of humans are structured. Simple, because there’s a lot which is also we. We always say we have a growth mindset. Still, some processes in our brain are evolutionary fixed, so we should make it easy for us and apply to them, because I think with that we can really speed up transformation. And, yeah, I would recommend everyone to understand a little bit more about neuro change okay, we’ll put the link into the show notes. 


That’s cool. Thanks for that. Recommendations recommendation. So before we leave, finally leave the aircraft. Is there anything else you would like to share with our listeners? 


so I think also maybe that sounds like a very boring phrase but your mindset is key. 


So everyone who is coming to me saying, leona, I don’t know how should I implement anything of what you said now I always say your mindset is key, because what we are talking here about is not the most complex science ever. It’s a very intuitive, human needs-based thought process, meaning if you want to integrate humans and their needs better in a process, every one of you and you don’t have to be a psychologist for that and if you don’t want to do it, you won’t do it right. So it’s really a matter of your own attitude. When you are feeling like getting drawn into a process and you just see the process and technical related topics and you completely forget about the target group and the people using it, then it’s very important to always remind yourself. Put a sticker on your desk that says mindset, or people or whatever, or a heart, and so that you always get reminded of the importance of the human needs behind it, which is sometimes forgotten between the technological or technical expertise talks yeah, great, love it. 


That was super cool talking to you. Final question how would you describe your flight experience with just three words? 


so I felt very joyful, I felt very like I like talking in this podcast. Setting gives me a lot of self-enhancement, of course I like talking to you, so I’m attached and I know you said three. But to always mention my four things controlled, but maybe I’m not sure if this is so controlled because it’s a new feature and we had some technical struggles at the beginning, but I think we managed pretty well. 


Yeah, absolutely. That was a super smooth flight which we had today, so inspiring, and it took a lot of notes which I’m going to take into my work and take that into consideration. So thank you so much for bringing the different generations onto my radar and I’m really looking forward to your session at the new process conference and whatever will happen afterwards. So there’s a lot to come, for sure. That’s super cool. So thank you so much for being my  today. Have a great day, bye-bye. 


Thank you so much, thank you so much, bye-bye. 


Wow, this topic of the different generations has not been on my radar up to now, but now it definitely is. So I never thought about different generations and their specifics when talking about diversity, but I’m going to add this, as an example, to the new process principle, which is to encourage diversity and inclusion through processes principle, which is to encourage diversity and inclusion through processes From now on, to take the uniqueness of people and their needs into account. We are not only aware of different cultures, but also of different generations of the people and, most important, we should not see these specialties as a hurdle, but as an enrichment to be incorporated into process diversity. For sure, there are numerous stereotypes, but it all starts with just being aware of these aspects. I find it also very fascinating that Leona mentioned that Gen Z is a human-centric generation with a community-based approach to communication, and I certainly have to take a closer look at this in the future. So the next opportunity to learn more about this, and especially the psychological aspects of BPM, will be Leona’s session at the New Process Conference. In addition to Leona, we’ll also have deep dive sessions on Gen AI, gamification, branding, storytelling and more to rethink processes. So if you want to be at the forefront of BPM. Get your tickets now. There are only a few seats available. You’ll find all the details at newprocesslabcom slash conference. 


I think we’ll need a follow-up session with Leona to learn more from her, but before this there are other interesting episodes coming up. The next episode will be a bit more technical. I’ll talk to Bonitasoft CEO Charles Sujat about process automation, and there are some more method expert episodes in the pipeline. But for now, thank you very much for listening. Have a great day. Bye-bye Und auf Wiedersehen. 


Before you leave, we are slowly approaching the second birthday of the new process podcast and I’d like to ask you for your feedback. So what do you like about the podcast? What would you like to see changed? I’m really interested in learning more from you and making the new process podcast even better for you. So to give me your feedback, just go to newprocesslabcom slash feedback. It’ll only take a few minutes to answer four simple questions, but it will mean a lot to me and you can help to improve the new process podcast. Thank you so much. Have a great day. Bye-bye. 



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