BPM meets Psychology with Leona Holzbecher
#057 Let’s talk about the importance of listening to the human needs in BPM.
In this episode, I’m talking to Leona Holzbecher again. After the last episode with her where we talked about different generations in BPM and the New Process Conference where she was one of the speakers, it was clear to me that I had to invite her back for the New Process Podcast.
As a psychologist, Leona knows best about the human-centric approach and how a deeper understanding of our emotional responses to processes can help us manage them better.
We look at the 4 basic human needs that we need to trigger.
But how can we use this to get people excited about process? Let us find out…
Todayโs Guests:
Leona Holzbecher
Leona is a psychologist and systemic coach. She started her own business “Leona Holzbecher Consulting” to coach companies and people to rethink their why from a psychological perspective in 2024.
She has a lot of experience in change management in a large corporation. Leona holds a Master’s degree in Psychology and has completed trainings in System Intervention and Organizational Development and Transformation.
You may know her from the other episode about different generations (EP48) and from the New Process Conference where she talked about the psychological aspect in the context of BPM.
Youโll learn:
- how to apply psychological tricks to get people excited about processes
- what the four basic human needs are you have to address
- how to integrate this into your BPM approach
Resources
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Transcript
Please note that the transcript was generated automatically and only slightly adjusted. It does not claim to be a perfect transcription.
Mirko: 0:19
Yeah, welcome to episode 57 of the New Process Podcast. Today we’re going to explore how psychology can be used to rethink processes. Therefore, I’m talking to Leona Holzbecher. Leona is a psychologist and systemic coach. She started her own business, leona Holzbecher Consulting, to coach companies and people to rethink their why from a psychological perspective just this year. She has a lot of experience in change management in a large corporation. Leona holds a master’s degree in psychology and has completed trainings in systemic intervention and organizational development and transformation.
Mirko: 0:58
You may know her from the other episode about different generations, which was episode 48, and from the new process conference, where she talked about psychological aspects in the context of BPM. And because this session at the conference was so engaging, we just had to record a separate episode on this, and this is what you’re listening to today. So in this episode you’ll learn how to apply psychological tricks to get people excited about processes, what the four basic human needs are you have to address and how to integrate this into your BPM approach. So this is definitely one of the most important episodes to get people excited about processes. Just enjoy the interview with Leona Holzbecher.
Mirko: 1:49
Yeah, welcome back to the New Process Podcast Leona.
Leona: 1:53
Hello, thank you for having me again.
Mirko: 1:55
Yeah, exactly. So we met live at the New Process Conference in April and we had an episode end of march already and after meeting you at the conference, we said we have to put this topic into another podcast episode and finally we are recording this today. That’s super cool. Because you have already been on the podcast, we can skip the check-in. We can directly start with my favorite question how would you describe your relationship to processes?
Leona: 2:24
that’s like a very difficult question to ask a psychologist to describe your relationship to something. I think, like some years ago or even one year ago, I would really have answered the question differently than I would answer it now, because I would have said something, as I don’t know, unimportant, boring. I want to step over them, especially, like in corporate environment. It’s maybe not that much needed or it just takes a lot of time. So my relationship is rather tense and maybe a little bit frustrated. But since I started to flavor the topic of processes with psychological input, I would say it’s different somehow. I would not say that I I’m in love with processes now, but I really think there is so much potential in them and I really start liking them.
Mirko: 3:20
Therefore, that’s cool. And now I’m curious. We have to check what you answered half a year ago, so maybe.
Leona: 3:27
Oh, that’s true, we’re on a good on a good way probably. I think that was exactly the year when I started bringing in or connecting topics with each other in march, april in the conference.
Mirko: 3:41
Yeah, so now my relationship is even stronger because I made even more experiences, wow that’s pretty good, cool and you know I’m doing a lot of experiments with new process to rethink processes and today we have something which is out of space, super spooky, on the agenda and we are going to start this podcast episode now with the meditation right true, I hope it’s not that spooky it’s.
Leona: 4:11
it should rather be a little bit calming. But maybe it’s spooky at the very first thought to connect those two topics. But actually processes and meditation somehow belong together and I would like to invite you to test that together with me. For that so especially to the audience listening, but also for you, mirko, before we start and before you can also close your eyes, it would be nice if you just grab yourself a piece of paper or something, or you can also write it down online if you want to, because I want you to think about a process that has caught a lot of your attention recently Maybe a process you worked with, or a process your clients worked with, or whatever and just think about one process that you think, yeah, actually the last weeks I really was kind of struggling with it, or put a lot of energy into it and write the name down. And to the audience, please also do so and write down on a piece of paper what process is currently in your mind or especially lately? Can you have some?
Mirko: 5:25
Yeah, I do.
Leona: 5:26
You have one. Okay, yeah, perfect, because what we want to do now is we want to meditate on actually exactly this process. So keep that name of the process in mind and with that you can just find a comfortable position. If you want, you can also lay back, really lay back, so that you get relaxed and off your tension. And it’s important that you somehow are grounded. So we don’t want to fly away in the process, space or universe now. We still want to stay grounded. So therefore it would be amazing if you kind of feel your feet on the ground and with that you can close your eyes, but of course you don’t have to. It’s also totally fine if you just find yourself one spot in front of you that you’re kind of staring at. Just that you keep your energy a little bit calm and with that we can lay back and we can all together take a very deep breath in and then out.
Leona: 6:27
So let’s do this three times. If you want, you can close your eyes. We breathe in together and out. Then for another time we breathe in together and out, and one last time we breathe in and out again. Then, for the next two to three minutes, try to focus on your breath, because focusing on our breath really helps us to calm down, to settle a little bit and to also start feeling our body. So we still continue breathing, try to calm down our breath. You can still breathe as deep as you want to, but it’s more important that you really just let it flow, that with every breath you’re taking, you’re feeling even more and more relaxed and at ease. You can also just check in with your body shortly is there anywhere in your body like tension or any pain that needs to be released? We can do a quick body check from head to toe, so you kind of feel how is your head and your neck actually feeling right now? Is there any tension that has to be released? And, if so, you take another deep breath in and in and maybe you try to really breathe into that area where you feel the tension and with every breath it starts to relax. You can check in with your shoulders how are your shoulders actually feeling today, with your back, your belly down to your knees and toes, and you feel tension somewhere. Just try to focus on that spot of your body and really bring in some relaxation here.
Leona: 8:50
And while your body is more and more relaxed, I want you to think back on the process that you have just written down on paper or digital. What is the process about? Just name the name of the process inwardly or is it inwardly and think about what feelings and emotions are coming up when you think about the process. How does it make your body feel? What is probably also changing, maybe within your body right now?
Leona: 9:39
You can also try to really name the emotion that is coming up. So, is it rather frustration? Is it anger? Is it joy?
Leona: 9:51
So, whatever kind of emotion that is coming up, try to really catch it and name it, that you make it very clear for yourself and just stay a little bit with the emotion that the process is triggering within you, and then we take another very deep breath in and out. You can also do this together, and with every breath you let go of your process and the emotion again to come back to the here and now, to the usual environment you’re currently in. So we take another deep breath in and out, in in as deep as you can, and out again, and in and out, and then you can slowly start moving your shoulders or you can bring some tension back in your body. Maybe you also want to stretch yourself whatever feels good for you, and then you can. If you have closed, you can also slowly open your eyes and just look left and right to come back into the here and now, into your room. And yeah, mirko, what emotion was coming up for you.
Mirko: 11:38
Excitement.
Leona: 11:39
I mean, you can also share the process if you want, but maybe we want to keep it confidential.
Mirko: 11:47
What? Would you guess what kind of process or what process I was thinking about?
Leona: 11:52
Huh, onboarding process Maybe, or any process related to. I mean, we just talked about, like sometimes how difficult it is to get to doctors and get meetings scheduled with doctors, so maybe also the process around that.
Mirko: 12:11
No, no, it was just the process management.
Mirko: 12:16
So my process, the one I’m always working on thinking about, actually I visited a customer about two weeks ago and we had a super deep discussion on this process, so how to bring process management to a higher level. Often it just stops with yeah, we have mapped our processes and that’s it. And yeah, we realized how important it is to have a structured approach in place to really manage and continuously improve or innovate a process and put all the new process principles into that, so to get the people excited. Trust and purpose, transparency all these were aspects we discussed and that really excited me me that discussion in a very positive way. So I was energized and that was what I was just thinking about oh, nice.
Leona: 13:12
So it was a positive emotion that was coming up. Yes, excitement, yeah, and positive energy, yeah, yeah, okay, that’s nice. So for all the others in the audience who had negative emotions coming up, I mean that it was not our intention to make you feel bad, right, but I think it’s sometimes. If there was a negative emotion, then sometimes it’s better to know that’s maybe negatively related than to not to know it or to have it still existing but not just talking about it. So I think sometimes I think a very typical psychological phrase is you have to get through the fear to get out of the fear. You have to get through the negative emotion first to get out of it yeah, absolutely yeah yeah okay, nice.
Leona: 13:59
So do you think that processes create feelings?
Mirko: 14:02
then yeah sure, yeah sure, yeah. Not the process model, but even a nice picture of a process can definitely from my point of view, create feelings, because for me, it’s an art.
Mirko: 14:14
You can look at that picture and discuss it, and the people who created it really made it their baby and there’s always a meaning, even in a process model. But for me, yeah, talking a process model, but for me, yeah, talking about process purpose. Yeah, for sure, that’s highly emotional to think about why do we have this process and what can we give back to the world, and so on, so that there is a lot of space to put all the emotions into. But a lot of people do not really try it out or are brave enough to talk about emotions.
Mirko: 14:47
That’s what I experience way too often and, yeah, definitely there are feelings involved, Unfortunately often ignored.
Leona: 14:56
Yeah, true, yeah, I think, especially in that context and I totally agree here that it’s often somehow not touched, because when you open the tundra box of emotions, then sometimes it means that you really have to take the time to focus on them, to deal with it, to get through it. And I think, especially in our fast-changing world, we sometimes we know maybe there are big emotions behind, but we just don’t have the time or we don’t want to make it too much of a topic, so we just run through or run over it. But that also means that we are missing and that’s why I really like to talk about the topic we are also missing the power of emotions in process management, therefore, because when we activate the right emotions, we can be even more productive, we can be even more successful in process management.
Mirko: 15:52
So it’s also kind of a yeah, a kind of a forgotten chance when you don’t talk about it because, it also can be positive, or it should be yeah, yeah, absolutely so, for I told this story several times already, on the podcast, I think. But I’ve been working for a very engineering-like business unit for years, so there are a lot of engineers, it guys and so on. Emotions have always been ignored, I would say. And then, finally, I got into a new work project with colleagues from HR, two psychologists, and that was the best project ever, because they really asked about emotions and we did a lot of real talk and really asked the people and even in the project team we discussed our feelings and emotions towards the topic we were working on in the project.
Mirko: 16:46
That’s that’s where I really learned that can be different and that’s why I think it’s super important. But my problem always is to put that into words. So now you are here as a psychology expert, can you elaborate a bit more on why it is so important from your point of view to include the psychological aspects into process management? You already started, but maybe you can give us some more ideas on that, why it’s so important sure?
Leona: 17:17
yeah, I think the answer is like very simple.
Leona: 17:20
It’s because behind every process there are humans, right, and if we want processes to be lived, we have to somehow understand the human factors behind it and, of course, understanding that human factor can be a game changer.
Leona: 17:34
But I would also say that not understanding it somehow is a limitation for process management. And, as we have now also realized with the quick meditation, or also as you shared from your experiences, we know that processes create feelings and we know that humans have the feelings. So there’s so much potential that we can use, if we want to use it, in understanding how are actually feelings processed within humans. And therefore I don’t know if you have heard of the term neuro change also, so it’s kind of a term for change management, seen from a more neurological perspective, that you really say hey, we have a specific functioning brain, it’s evolutionary, rooted, it’s wiring in a specific way, trained from our historic pause right the tiger in front of us that we have to maybe fight or flight or whatever freeze for. And this is there and this is somehow our biggest strength but also our biggest limitation. And if we adapt neuroscience and slightly knowledge around neuroscience within change management, process management, then we really can trigger change even faster that’s what neuro change kind of means.
Leona: 18:57
Yeah, okay so I would say you should really try to understand the basics of how our brain is functioning and that’s why I also really love sharing the brain view of how our emotions actually established within our brain and what areas are important for that I don’t know. Do you know the key area of where emotions and feelings are kind of created within our brain?
Mirko: 19:29
No.
Leona: 19:30
Because that’s something I think. Of course, it’s not important to know the technical term behind it, but I think it’s important to know that there is such an area existing. It’s, by the way, called the amygdala. It’s, by the way, called the amygdala, and when you make it, or can make it, to positively stimulate that, then different brain cells are activated, as if you would trigger it negatively, so to say, and depending on how you trigger it, you would, as a human, rather show an approaching or avoiding behavior to something that you are looking at. And what we, of course, want is a prodging behavior, right, because we want people to do something that they probably would not want to do, but we want to make it so attractive for them that they start prodging it, and that’s why we, for example, need positive hormones, such as dopamine and so on, to really push them there. It’s the same thing that’s happening when we are just eating food we’d like it because this area in the brain is stimulated, so we have this.
Leona: 20:33
I know very well yeah, we have to make processes even as likely as eating burger now I’m in, absolutely, you got me.
Mirko: 20:46
By the way, there will be another bpm dish next week where we can have burgers. But how, so what are the, the tools we can use, or how can we influence these positive emotions, feelings?
Leona: 21:03
yeah. So if you want to really trigger like the positive path in our brains, one of the major things you should consider is thinking about our basic human needs. Sometimes when we as humans think about ourselves or getting asked, we always think we are so complex and so deep and there’s so much behind it. And actually this is not so true. I always say humans are so simple. Also, they really don’t believe it themselves because they’re actually four basic needs that we all just want to seek all day long, and this is the main driver into every kind of a project behavior that we show. We always want to get those needs fulfilled and there is a psychological theory by Grawe we can also link it in the show notes and he says that the four basic needs that we want to get fulfilled are the is the need of control. That means the control, not that we get control, but that we have the feeling we can control something, so we can impact something. It’s not just happening to us randomly, we can really make active decisions in why things are happening. So this is a very strong driver for humans feeling of control.
Leona: 22:21
Then the second is the feeling of joy and pleasure. I mean, as we said, with eating burgers. We have to make process as attractive as eating burgers, because it’s just a lot of pleasure and just a lot of joy to eat burgers and we’re getting high on dopamine when we do that. And that’s what we actually want to seek all day long, every time, and we want to get a good feeling of pleasure and joy. This is what we are striving for right, when we feel bad, we want to feel better, the waves of life.
Leona: 22:52
Then we have the topic of self enhancement, or the need for self enhancement. This sounds very difficult, but actually it’s kind of referring to the very egocentric state of us as humans that we always seek for making our self-worth getting increased so that we at the end of the day can say, oh my God, today I got so self-enhanced, I got even better, I feel even better, I am the top of the top. So we always seek that. And then, last but not least, but very important, is the feeling of attachment. So we want to feel connected. We are social beings, we want to be part of something bigger and I really think when we can make it somehow that in processes, the need for control, the need for pleasure, the need for pleasure, the need for attachment, the need for self-enhancement, is somehow stronger. Fulfilled, the process itself, just from an evolutionary, brain-rooted perspective, would be so much more attractive and the brain would then just work for us. So it’s not much more that we have to do when we fulfill them, because then we will like them.
Mirko: 24:10
I just thought about the New Process Podcast episode itself, so you can control this as a listener.
You can decide.
Mirko: 24:18
I want to listen to this episode now. Yeah, so I’m in control. Hopefully it’s also a bit of pleasure, joy, listening to what I mean we just have to mention the term burger burger burger. Exactly, it’s some kind of self-enhancement, because afterwards you are much smarter than you were before, because you listen to what we talked about and finally, you can also feel attached to the new process community. So there are a lot of people out there who are listening to the podcast, who are rethinking processes, so basically it’s just listening to an episode.
Leona: 24:52
Yeah, is it that simple. I mean that’s simple. I mean actually it is right. So all the things you have mentioned, that would be like great examples for how you can kind of change or make your process even more attractive If you just change those light things. Because the next question now would be okay how can we increase control, the feeling of control in a process? Yeah, and I mean something that you mentioned already, like just providing a platform, as in the podcast, where we can stop and do a I have a break when from a podcast, when we want to have it. This already gives us a lot of control and feeling of ownership and decision making so easy.
Mirko: 25:35
Yeah, and I’m already in this because I thought ah, so having a process podcast established in your organization, for example, as a platform to share insights? What is going on? Entertain the people, provide them with information regarding different processes, for example, so that they can learn something. They belong to that community.
Leona: 26:06
Could be a nice tool which is easy to set up, to work on nice right. Yeah, I mean that would be social media like a little bit. Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah. But I mean, why is social media so hyped? Because all of the four needs are so nicely fulfilled, right, and somehow you get also like addicted to that.
Leona: 26:20
I’m a process addicted oh yeah, I mean actually that should be our goal, that we should make as many people as possible addicted to processes. Yeah, people should get so high on dopamine that they can’t even stop it that’s great.
Mirko: 26:38
I’m planning to rethink the pizza game I’m always talking about. Maybe it’s going to be a burger game now you have to ask the community first.
Leona: 26:48
What do they like more? Depending on the target group. Maybe you have some regions. Depending on the target group.
Mirko: 26:56
You need to choose the source, choose which ingredients to use.
Leona: 27:00
so oh, a lot of control, yeah nice, that’s.
Mirko: 27:05
That’s super cool, but can you give some more examples related to real processes how to get more control or more joy, more attachment?
Leona: 27:13
sure, yeah. So let’s start with the need for control. So usually when when you hear I don’t know onboarding process, for example, you would first of all think, oh nice, there should be so much control being fulfilled because a process is providing a predefined path to follow. So when you’re, for example, a new one getting hired and you invite them or him or her to the onboarding process, then it should give them the feeling of safety net and control, because they just need to follow the steps and then they are fully on board. But why are onboarding processes then often seen as boring or unnecessary? Because we have no control over how we get onboarded. So it’s not the feeling of I know that there’s a predefined path and the steps that I can follow. That is giving us the feeling of control. Because this is control coming from the outside. We want to control that is coming from ourselves, from our inside to the outside side. We want to control that is coming from ourselves, from our inside to the outside. So there are four tips and tricks I would say that I always mention when you want to increase the need for control in a process, and this is explaining the why. So why do you actually need this process right now. And what is your individual biggest benefit? Because this gives so much feeling of control that I just know why something is happening to me and that I can understand it. So this telling the why is the the biggest driver, so to say.
Leona: 28:53
Then create participation. So processes should not be developed behind the scenes by two process designers or architects and that’s it. It should be a community approach. Right? People should have the feeling of, hey, I could influence the process, so it’s nice to be part of it already. So create participation. Participation, then engage in feedback loops. Don’t just roll out a process and throw it over them and say here it is, enjoy. You really should allow them to give feedback to the process, also negative feedback, when the process is not really serving themselves well, or when it’s unaffected or whatever, so that you get a feeling of control hey, something is maybe not that nice, but I can really influence it, I can say something about it.
Leona: 29:41
And last but not least, I think the topic of consequences is very important.
Leona: 29:46
So showing consequences, because when we don’t know what is happening, when we, for example, don’t follow a process, then why should we do it?
Leona: 29:55
So if we know the consequences, we can also impact something for ourselves, because we can try to achieve the consequences in a positive way or not. And what I see in organizations pretty often is that I don’t know the CIO, ceo or whatever is sending out an email as a pressure element to bring everybody on the process, just because it’s a head of whatever email, and you really kind of create a lot of fear of, hey, when we don’t do the process right now, when the process user numbers are not getting higher than this, and that is negatively happening to you, then the add-off does know it already and this is creating a lot of fear and fear is creating control loss and therefore I also think, think about what can be positive consequences that you can trigger, because this gives feeling of control, because then I know if I, if I achieve that, I get something very rewarding and it’s actually nice. Yeah, so just the four tips and tricks that I think that would fit pretty well.
Mirko: 31:06
Okay, and for the other human needs, are there more examples? I just love what you just said. It perfectly fits to the new process approach. Parts of it are reflected in the new process principles, so that’s. That’s super good to know that there is more which is backing up the ideas, also from a psychological point of view. Yeah, sure.
Leona: 31:30
So let’s continue with pleasure or joy, for example, and I think what is mainly important here is to understand that there are different personalities out there and therefore also different personalities in process, users or the target group, and pleasure is different for them, right? For some, pleasure is created by having, as you said, a very appealing visual at the beginning, with nice colors, and for others, this is creating fear, or they just don’t like it, or their brain is not really like.
Mirko: 32:08
Depends on the notation you’re using.
Leona: 32:11
That’s true Depends on if a burger is in the video, no, but I think know your process personalities. I would say this is key and when you know them you can really kind of depending on that so you can really ask them what do you need? What is creating pleasure for you? So reflect on your target group, ask them before or during the you decide you are designing the process hey, what would give you joy or fun? Because everyone has its own definition. So I think that’s that’s important and with that you also know, like your detractors, you know your resistors, you know those who are change agents of the process. So you, it’s also very helpful for yourself to figure out who is the one who really is liking the process, because you can then really focus on that group of people already, because humans are social beings and they always follow others. So if you can activate the first ones, then you get first followers too.
Leona: 33:16
So that’s key, key and for pleasure, I think and that’s something I see especially like also in larger companies happening often that you really have a long process predefined and you really try to keep people motivated until the end and that you say, hey, in the end, this and that will be the end.
Leona: 33:38
This and that will be the end result and the may. This will be the north, that the major goal. This will be so amazing, but therefore you really need a lot of long-term motivation during the way and therefore I always say kind of, cut your goals into pieces and create quick wins as soon as possible. So, for example, when a new tool is rolled out for a process, for example, really let them feel the positive experiences of the tool as soon as possible. Don’t let them do hundreds of trainings, for example, follow one step after another so that they fall asleep during the way, because probably the end goal will be amazing and the tool when they use it will be a lot of fun, but you will lose their attention on the way. So enabling quick wins is also a lot of pleasure related would say yeah okay, that’s, that’s cool.
Mirko: 34:37
So I think I will need a day or more to re-listen to the interview to work out all the insights and the ideas which we can then integrate into the new process lifecycle, for example, because that’s the idea that all the things I’m learning here in the interviews I try to integrate into the process of process management, which is the new process life cycle in my world. Yeah, which is a part of the toolbox I’m using a new process pro and which will have way more content in the future than it has today. But you know there are these different phases. Yeah, we start with developing process purpose. You already said it’s important for the people to be in control, to know the why, yeah, to understand why do we have this process, what is it good for, and so on. Second phase is to develop the process strategy. That’s more technical, to find out how a process can contribute to the business strategy. Yeah, what do we have to do as a process community to contribute to the business strategy? That’s the process strategy. Then, in the end, then, based on this strategy, we’re going to design the process in a more creative way. That’s where the people come together and they use post-its on the wall and innovate the process.
Mirko: 35:55
I think we could also ask about feelings, for example, identify the different types of people and where they find pleasure, for example. Then we have the modeling. That’s where we put it into a tool, into a notation Everyone understands, and so on. Then we implement the process and make sure that everyone is enabled to execute the process. Then we can steer it and that’s basically the big lifecycle that we have. And then we have a smaller, integrated one where we improve process execution, where we can find out at the different locations what can we do to improve our execution here, which still fits to the overall process. And if we have good ideas, we have to make sure that these good ideas from local people get into the overall process design to be rolled out to all the locations. So that’s the life cycle and, um, I don’t know where would you focus on to which phase? Where do you think it is most effective to integrate these psychological aspects or to, yeah, try to create positive feelings? For example, in which phases? What do you think?
Leona: 37:03
yeah, I think that’s. I think there is probably no right or wrong answer to that question, because definitely you should consider that at an early stage, certain the design phase of your process already, because that would influence how the process is looking like at the end. But I think and often processes like are already rolled out and then they rethink it and I think it’s also totally fine, right? So I really think the most important thing is that you, that you put on your psychological hat at some point, the earlier the better. But if you maybe I did not have the time to do it at an early stage, then then also do it later. But the most important thing is that you do it and that you do it continuously, over and over again.
Leona: 37:50
So just because you have created pleasure one time doesn’t mean that this will be the relief for the rest of the process, life, right? So we have to do this again and again. So I think the reinforcement aspect is very important. It’s not about fulfilling it once, it’s about continuously fulfilling it over a longer period of time, because I mean, just because you had one funny day in your life, that would not make your whole life funny, right? Or just because you have eaten one burger doesn’t mean that you don’t like to have another one, so it’s not that simple with us, then. So we really want to have the needs fulfilled over and over again, and I think that’s what we could also do in process management, so integrate it to every stages.
Mirko: 38:39
Every can somehow do it so, having the psychological head kind of as a horizontal or parallel line below it, just that you don’t forget about it, or when you get off track, you then jump back to the line again, over, over again, I would say, continuously do you have an idea for me, as an it technical guy, how to remind myself of thinking about these aspects, because as long as the process is good enough, everything will be fine.
Leona: 39:13
You know, yeah, that’s true, I know it’s not like that, but yeah, I think how you can really kind of influence this.
Leona: 39:20
The best is that you take the time to check in with your own feelings and that sounds probably like for an IT guy very difficult at the beginning, but when you start with yourself, it will be much more easier for you to understand how others are feeling like.
Leona: 39:35
So if you just like schedule like one 50 minutes meeting in your calendar on a Friday afternoon where you say reflection time for my process, for example, and during that time you really ask yourself the question what feelings is the process currently creating for myself? So just start with yourself and of course you are probably in the responsibility hat, so to say, and therefore you maybe have different feelings than the user because there’s maybe tension on the topic or whatever, but still this helps you to then, from your own feelings, jump to the feelings of the users. So I think don’t underestimate like also we did the meditation here at the beginning, also as an experiment but don’t underestimate the silent time and the reflection time for yourself, because this helps you to connect with your own inner feelings and this will also then help you to understand. Okay, where can I maybe tweak the process a little bit? Because when you are feeling frustrated and you are the one who should bring it to others, how should others then feel positive about it? So it always starts with yourself.
Mirko: 40:50
So self-reflection is key okay, noted, I’ve just written that down and I already have an idea of how to integrating integrate this question into the daily routines.
Leona: 41:05
But, yeah, I’m not going to reveal this idea now maybe we also I also have a night, maybe also I don’t know this is not really happening but also when you’re using a process, for example, as a user, you should get asked on how this is, how this is making you actually feel. Yeah yeah on the way, during the way, capture those feelings yeah and then because then you can ask them okay, you’re frustrated, but why so? What is actually frustrating you?
Mirko: 41:32
and then you can kind of zoom into the technological piece of change yeah, I think I already discussed that twice with other people, not on the podcast, but in real life. We thought about providing feedback in the tool, like having a feedback button there, but not to write a feedback like, oh, this process really sucks or I have an idea on how to improve it here and there, but just to feedback your feelings and then create something like a heart map, not a heat map, but a heart way. You can see, I have my process world and here are coming a lot of hearts, a lot of positive feelings or whatever. Something like that.
Leona: 42:12
That’s uh, something, yeah or, like I really like also the idea of those out of this heart. Or I really also like emotion emojis in that regard to transport, how we are feeling, like I mean. That’s why we are also using that in everyday communication. Why don’t we also use them in process around the process also make it emotionally attaching for the users and then use emojis in the communication.
Mirko: 42:49
I was just thinking about even using emojis in the process documentation, in the processes themselves. I’m not sure about about that, but why not? Yeah, yeah, some emotions.
Leona: 43:00
Yeah, maybe we should only use the emojis that are clear for everyone. Yeah, yeah, I don’t know when. When I’m sometimes chatting with my mom, I sometimes am like come on, I really don’t know if you mean what you mean just by using that, so we need a emoji translation yeah glossary, vicky glossary, yeah, but that would be nice actually. Yeah, everything that catches our attention and is somehow activating any approaching path in our brain cells. This is already a success yeah, absolutely.
Mirko: 43:36
I already thought about interviewing a copywriter to get some tips and tricks on how to write good process descriptions. So beyond the model itself when we’re talking about specific activities. How to get that written in a style which really attracts the people.
Mirko: 43:56
So yeah that’s still on my list, yeah. So let’s see what we can get on the podcast to talk about copywriting and to sell your process story. That’s something I still have on my list. That’s cool, yeah. So you already mentioned a lot of cool ideas, but I always ask this question, question. So what are your three top recommendations to get to a more human-centric bpm approach and to inspire people for processes?
Leona: 44:27
yeah. So I think, start with yourself and analyze your own feelings you are having during your daily work for the process and all the process environment that is created. And if you have that somehow captured for yourself, ask the target group. Then don’t forget that humans are structured very simple and that your main goal should be to fulfill at least a few of the basic needs, say the needs of control, pleasure, self-enhancement and attachment as a mantra, so to say, for yourself. And of course you cannot maybe fulfill all of them at once, but if you just can somehow make it to at least tweak two of them or one of them, this will already create so much dopamine, I would say. And then, last but not least, do not underestimate the power of soft factors in process management, because behind every process there are humans, and understanding them is our biggest goal and also, if we don’t do it, our biggest limitation. So in the end, the best process belongs to humans and therefore we need to understand how they are working. So get a psychologist award so I really am like.
Leona: 45:51
I mean, I’m a really big fan of diversity here too. Yeah, like the power of different professions, so this would be so amazing really to work with different perspectives on those topics, so also those who are creating it. Don’t just think that if you have the best process architect in the boat then it will be perfectly rolled out. Think about what other disciplines in addition to that might be beneficial also in the creation phase.
Mirko: 46:20
Yeah, that’s cool. Wow, thank you for these recommendations. So I think, with regards to the time, we should come to an end. So if our listeners would like to learn more about your work and get in touch with you, how can they do this?
Leona: 46:41
yeah, so I always love the conversations on linkedin, so there I’m very active so they can reach out to me on linkedin anytime, and I think we can also post my email in the show notes, maybe, so then you can also reach me there. Yeah, I think that then linkedin is the place to be the place to go, and I’m very happy to just also exchange around those topics.
Mirko: 47:05
Right, that would be very nice yeah, that’s cool, and we’re going to offer a deep dive session, right. So, on new process pro, that’s what we are planning. I, in the recap, I can give you the date, or at least an idea on how to find out when this deep dive session will take place. So that’s going to be super interesting. We already had one about the makers approach, which we talked about before in another session, and that was an awesome session that we had then live with the two guys and with a number of people from the community, where we had the chance to really go into the details. They shared some examples, shared some pictures. I think it would be hard to share pictures here. In this case, we really talked about the questions coming from the community. So that’s what we’re planning with you as well. So thanks for offering this to, to make that always, yeah, possible too this is like kind of fulfilling all of my basic needs ah great.
Leona: 48:06
Those most conversations. I mean attachment within the community, right and self-enhancement. If I get, hopefully, positive feedback after that, like this, would be very good for my pleasure anyway, because I like talking and talking to people and control. I mean you are providing such a good and very nice and relaxed atmosphere in that whole context, so this is also fulfilled, I would say check.
Mirko: 48:33
That’s. That’s super cool, maybe even beyond psychology or you. You have a good source you would recommend for me to have a closer look onto. I think I asked you that already in the first interview. But today, which topic method tool expert would you recommend taking a closer look at to get more ideas on how to rethink processes? So it could be from psychology, but not necessarily it could be something completely different.
Leona: 49:03
I’m not so sure if I recommended it in the last episode, but it’s the topic of neuro change. I would really think that might be very important. To dive in deeper, you could just like there is a lot of literature and books out there. And another thing I think that might be important is the topic of resilience. I don’t know if you have heard of that, but if you want, especially people, to survive those very tense phases of changes right now that we are having in very complex environments we are in, I really think to talk about resilience is very, very important. So what makes us also healthy in stressful times? How can we better understand what makes humans and people getting more and more connected to themselves again, so kind of coming back to their own roots? And I think this also then helps you to even better understand what you can do to serve them in fulfilling their needs. So somehow connecting resiliency with the needs, the basic needs.
Leona: 50:08
So, I can also send you a link on a nice book on resilience.
Mirko: 50:12
Yeah, we put that into the show notes as well. Sure, super cool, great. So before we leave this episode, is there anything else you would like to share with our listeners?
Leona: 50:23
Maybe one quote that I really like, it’s this sentence. It says change before we have to or change before you have to. So I think maybe right now for some, this soft side of process management will feel a little bit unfamiliar or weird, or maybe I don’t really know how should I really connect those two topics with each other. But I truly believe that also with the fast changing technology, that those topics will become even more and more important, even more and more important. That’s what we also see from trends in companies, from hey we need to go back to, from home office to events again, to get more and more connected and attached. So somehow we are always seeking those four basic needs. So you should not underestimate it. So if you start thinking about it right now, you are before the change that will come in the future. So change before you have to yeah, absolutely.
Mirko: 51:24
Wow, super cool, jona, thank you so much for all these insights. So, finally, how would you describe today’s flight experience in just three words?
Leona: 51:33
I’m actually so hungry now because we talked about so many burgers and whatever and I was thinking when did I had burger the last time? So maybe I don’t know. I mean, you’re in hamburg, I’m in nuremberg, it’s far away from each other, but we should somehow make it to eat burger together that’s a very good idea. Yeah, absolutely, and I’m hungry so I have to eat something now. So this is also very interesting. My brain is like just seeking for that.
Mirko: 52:02
Perfect, wow, yeah, leona. So next date is coming up. We’re going to have burgers. I’m already looking forward to that, maybe before we’re going to have the deep dive session on New Process Pro, and I’m already looking forward to more interactions with you. So thank you so much for being my guest today. Have a great day and enjoy your meal.
Leona: 52:22
Thank you, bye-bye.
Mirko: 52:30
Yeah, that’s exactly what I have in mind when thinking about new process.
Mirko: 52:35
For me, Leona shared so many inspiring ideas but, most important, we should think about creating processes as a positive experience, by creating positive feelings. So something I personally had to learn the hard way, I’d say but yeah, so to create positive feelings on dopamine, we have to consider four basic human needs. The first one is control the possibility to be in control of what is going on or at least to have the feeling to be in control and to create an impact. Second one is joy or pleasure to enjoy what you’re doing and to have a pleasure while executing a process, for example. The third one she named is self-enhancement to offer the possibility to get better, to learn and to develop oneself, like self-enhancement. And the fourth one is attachment you attachment, feeling connected to other people, being part of a community, and I think that we covered this already quite good with new process approach. So, as example for control, she named to work out the why and to explain the benefit. And this is exactly what I’m fighting for with new process principle to give meaning to processes and what we are doing when we develop process purpose and then, as you mentioned, that’s important to create participation, and that’s why we have the new process principle to involve the people working in the process, into the work on the process. So yeah, so yeah. Involve the people, invite them to participate, create transparency. And she also named feedback loops. Yeah, that’s also part of involving the people. Ask them for feedback, to comment on something like with the process influencer approach, creating transparency and let the people follow what is going on, let them comment, let them participate.
Mirko: 54:43
Another example for joy or pleasure, and that’s so essential for me as soon as something isn’t fun anymore for me, I always start thinking about stopping it, and that’s why I constantly try to make work as much fun as possible, like creating inspiring experiences. So people have to truly experience process in a positive way, like with the pizza game. But, as Leona said, it is important to reflect also on the target group, so on your process community, because not everybody has the same approach to what is creating joy. It really makes sense to involve the people, to ask them what creates fun for them, what creates pleasure. So this can definitely be integrated into the design phase, for example.Mirko: 55:40
Then, regarding self-enhancement, we have the new process principle to foster the development of the people in the process. Now, that’s so important to me to not just send out an email. Here comes the new process. Just go for it. Think about how you can enable, how you can empower the people to be able to execute the process, and if you’re doing that in a fun way, like with gamification, that’s super cool.
Mirko: 56:07
And then, finally, regarding attachment or feeling connected, I’m talking a lot about building your process community. So that’s what you really have to understand that the people working in your process, these people are your process community. So that’s what you really have to understand that the people working in your process, these people are your process community, which you have to build. You know, like thinking like an influencer. Build your followership, your community, create transparency, invite the people to participate, and I really love this example of setting up a process podcast or a video cast to let the people look into what is going on. Or you can even invite the people to be guests in your podcast and talk with them about their experiences and their feelings, for example.
Mirko: 56:52
So if you want to learn more about building your process community, I recommend listening to episode 10 of the New Process Podcast so quite an old episode, but still a good one with Mika Lehnonen. He’s an expert on community building and this episode is one of the ones I refer the most. So episode 10, just to go there, you can go to newprocesslabcom slash episode 10, or just look it up in your favorite podcast player episode 10. So a lot of these elements are already part of the new process approach and I will definitely work on integrating these elements even more into the new process lifecycle, especially into the design phase. But I also like the idea of seeing the psychological aspects like a horizontal line in parallel to the new process lifecycle. So constantly check in from the psychological perspective, not just at the beginning, and I already have an idea for a nice reminder. So stay tuned. I’ll share that as soon as it’s available.
Mirko: 58:04
So if you are interested to learn more about this topic and to meet Leona in a live session, then just join our deep dive session on New Process Pro. The deep dive session will take place on november 29th. To sign up for free, just go to newproslabcom slash leona. Maybe you’ll have to sign up for new process pro first, but that’s the link you can use to get directly to the deep dive session. To sign up, get all the details and then meet leona online for one of the next next episodes. I’d love, as I said, I’d love to talk to a copywriter to find out how to create inspiring process descriptions, so detailed descriptions of activities. If you know one and you can do an introduction, I’d really appreciate this. In the next episode we’ll deep dive into another exciting psychological topic, so stay curious. But for now, thank you much for listening. Have a fantastic day. Bye, bye und auf Wiedersehen.
Mirko: 59:23
which came up during the podcast on how to remind myself to think about feelings became reality. We have integrated the question how does this process make you feel as a reminder into the new process calendar 2025? And now you have the chance to win one of those limited calendars. We are raffling off the calendar as a thank you to all participants of the new process survey, which is running right now until end of November 2024. It’s my yearly survey to identify the top BPM topics for the upcoming year, so I’d love to learn more about your current challenges and, as a thank you, you can win a new process calendar. Isn’t that cool To participate in the survey? Just go to newprocesslabcom slash survey. Thank you very much. Have a fantastic day. Bye, bye.
