Lufthansa’s leading approach to BPM
#058 Explore Lufthansa’s cutting-edge BPM strategy with Jöran Glüsen from Lufthansa Group. Discover the WHY and HOW behind their success, insights into AI and Process Mining, and expert tips for a more human-centric approach.
In this episode, I’m talking to Jöran Glüsen from Lufthansa Group to explore Lufthansa’s leading approach to BPM. This episode is one of the rare case studies of a really mature BPM approach. A must-listen to episode for everyone interested in BPM.
Today’s Guest:
Jöran Glüsen
Jöran is Head of Process Management Lufthansa Technik Group and is leading the Center of Competence for Process Excellence at Lufthansa Group since 2022.
Before, he led the team of Process Modelers at Lufthansa Technik since 2016. – A team of more than 20 process modeling experts. He started his professional career in the Strategic Procurement department of Lufthansa Technik in 2011.
Lufthansa Technik, headquartered in Hamburg, Germany, is the maintenance, repair, and overhaul business unit of the Lufthansa Group. More than 23,000 employees of Lufthansa Technik and its subsidiaries serve over 800 customers worldwide with more than 4,000 aircraft under exclusive contracts.
Jöran studied Transportation and Logistics Management at Ostfalia University of Applied Sciences. He lives in Hamburg together with his wife and their three children. Personally, he likes to travel and he often feels like disco. 🕺
You’ll learn:
- What Lufthansa’s leading approach to BPM looks like
- Jöran will explain WHY they are doing it and HOW they are doing it as well as WHY it is today even more important than ever before
- He will provide an outlook into the future – where we are also talking about his takes on application of AI and Process Mining
- And besides plenty of other insights and learnings, Jöran will also share his recommendations on how to get to a more human-centric BPM approach
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Transcript
Please note that the transcript was generated automatically and only slightly adjusted. It does not claim to be a perfect transcription.
Mirko
Yeah, welcome to episode 58 of the New Process Podcast. Today, we’re exploring Lufthansa’s leading approach to BPM. Therefore, I’m talking to Jran Glysen. Joran is head of process management at Lufthansa Technik Group and is leading the center of competence for process excellence at Lufthansa Group since 2022. Before he led the team of process modelers at Lufthansa Technik since 2016, a team of more than 20 process modeling experts, he started his professional career in the strategic purchasing department of Lufthansa Technik in 2011. Lufthansa Technik, headquartered in Hamburg, Germany, is the maintenance repair, and overhaul business unit of the Lufthansa Group. More than 23,000 employees of Lufthansa Technik and its subsidiaries serve over 800 customers worldwide, with more than 4,000 aircraft under exclusive contracts.Mirko: 1:19
Jöran studied Transportation and Logistics Management at Australia University of Applied Science. He lives in Hamburg together with his wife and their three children. Personally, he likes to travel and he often feels like disco.
Mirko: 1:33
So, So in this episode, you’ll learn what Lufthansa’s leading approach to BPM looks like. Jöran will explain why they are doing it and how they are doing it, as well as why it is today even more important than ever before. He’ll provide an outlook into the future. Yeah, well, we are also talking about his takes on the application of AI and process mining and process management, and besides plenty of other insights and learnings, Jöran will also share his recommendations on how to get to a more human-centric BPM approach. This episode is going to be one of the rare case studies of a really mature BPM approach, a must-listen-to episode for everyone interested in business process management. And if you are lucky to work for Lufthansa Group and using ProX, Jöran joran will also provide some great insights for you too. So enjoy the interview with Jöran Glüsen.
Jingle: 2:35
And now let’s start to rethink processes.
Mirko: 2:39
Yeah, welcome to the new process podcast, Jöran. It’s great to have you here. Yeah, thank you very much for the invitation. Yeah, I just had to, after talking to Lars, and finally, we made it. Yeah, that’s super cool, so let’s dive right in and start with the check-in. So what do you prefer in an aircraft aisle or window seat?
Jöran: 2:57
Well, definitely window seat. As I have three children, I try to catch up some sleep while I’m in the plane, so that definitely works much better on a window seat.
Mirko: 3:07
Yeah, that’s true. So true. And what is your favorite airport?
Jöran: 3:09
Oh well, that’s a tough question. Actually it used to be Palma de Mallorca, but since I have three children and I’m not partying that much anymore, actually it’s Vancouver, because one of our greatest trips we ever made was there, because we had a six-week vacation when we had our first child and, yeah, super cool memories I have in mind when I think at that airport.
Mirko: 3:37
Yeah, I’ve never been to Vancouver before. Yeah you should, and we’re going to Palma next week. Yeah, cool, but family vacation, so let’s going to Palma next week yeah, cool, but family vacation, so let’s see how this will end up. That’s cool, great. And how would you describe your relationship to processes? That’s my favorite question.
Jöran: 3:58
That’s also a tough one. Well, I would say I’m kind of in love with processes and they can be super cool and they can be super annoying as well. So it’s a bright variety in the end. So that makes it very interesting and it’s, at least through my professional life, something I have experienced all the time. So, yeah, that’s an important part.
Mirko: 4:30
Okay, that’s very good and I think we’ll talk about more about that. So a few episodes ago, I interviewed Lars Müller. He’s a really experienced process architect and he recommended interviewing you to deep dive into the BPM approach of the Lufthansa group in general. So, to get started, what does this approach really look?
Jöran: 4:53
like. Well, in a nutshell, we have a very sophisticated methodology, we have our own developed IT tool and application and we have a role concept. I think those three parts are the most important when it comes to process management at Lufthansa Group. And yeah, I would say that’s pretty much the most important thing.
Mirko: 5:17
I’d love to deep dive into all the three topics you just named, but before we go into the details, can you just give us an overview of how the organizational setup of process management within the Lufthansa Group looks like?
Jöran: 5:33
Yeah, sure, sure. Well, we have one centralized team that is responsible for the whole process of process management a topic for special nerds and we also have the accountability to define the, the methods, as well as the, the development of the tool itself. And in the different lufthansa group organizations, there are then decentralized teams, sometimes that model the processes, um, and, and also the so-called process architects and process owners are decentralized because they are accountable for the content of the processes, um, yeah, but everything that is related to the methodology, the application, that’s something we take care of from a centralized perspective okay, that’s super cool.
Mirko: 6:26
Now we understand the setup. But you know I’m talking a lot about process purpose. So why are you doing all these things? What is the purpose of your bpm?
Jöran: 6:36
approach. Well, from my perspective, we just do that for the people that are actually executing processes. When you ask some of the colleagues in our company, they might have a different view on that, because in the aviation industry, fulfilling regulatory requirements is also very important and our described processes and our application are the basis for that as well. But it’s, from my perspective, really important to understand how we describe the processes, and it’s a very human-centric approach, and we always tell the process owners and the process architects to really keep in mind that they are not describing the processes for themselves, because the best defined process is versus if no one is working in accordance to it. So you have to find a way to describe it that the people that are supposed to execute the process really are able to understand what is asked to do.
Mirko: 7:34
Yeah, I fully agree. And what are you doing to bring this purpose to life?
Jöran: 7:40
Well, how much time do we have? Two hours, yeah, so, really, really a lot. You know, it’s really important to make the whole topic of process management tangible to the people somehow, because, on the one hand, it’s a topic for nerds, but on the other hand, we want to really create an impact for every employee. So, yeah, um, just a couple of examples we, when we have a new functionality, for example, yeah, in our application, um, there are thousands of people that are using this application, so we have to make them somehow familiar with it and there are different ways and sometimes, just like it’s, it’s planned already. Yeah, we are in the canteens, yeah, with some information stands. So, we, we have quite a lot of cool marketing articles, yeah, so, um, we, we talk to the people, we try to explain to the people. We try to explain to the people.
Jöran: 8:53
We have other people just another example who are working more on the designing of processes. We have forums and summits where we bring together those people to learn from each other. In general, these events are with 100 participants and we really focus on sharing best practices, because there are great ideas among the group and similar challenges the people are facing, and not everyone has to develop their own strategy to to tackle the challenges. There are great solutions sometimes that can be adapted around the globe. In our case, yeah, because we just last week we we had a meeting with 100 colleagues from I think it was, 16 different countries. Yeah, so it’s really, really interesting to meet the people that have great ideas.
Mirko: 9:46
And I think, yeah, the people know that I have been part of that team for years a few years ago and it was always important to bring the people together to us. Yeah, but why is it today even more important than ever before?
Jöran: 10:04
Well, actually, the way people are working has changed a lot. The people think differently than in the past and even they might not meet as often in person than before. So why do I say that people are thinking differently? For the people, it’s more important than in the past to understand why you ask them to do something and you have to create positive emotions so the people really follow your approach. Yeah, just going somewhere telling people you have to do it like that, and when they ask why? Because I said so, it’s not working anymore. So our team I’ve just been talking about the centralized team is quite small. We are talking about 25 people there and we have more than 30,000 active users of our methodology and application every year. No-transcript to do that all on your own. So you need supporters on different levels and they have to spread the word for you, and that’s really, really important.
Mirko: 11:40
That’s super interesting. I would like to go back and pick up what you said in the beginning, so that there are these three elements, when we talked about what is Pro-X in a nutshell, like the methodology, the tool and the role concept. Could you give a bit more detailed overview on how the methodology looks like, what the tool looks like, because you know, I’m still on the search for a human-centric BPM tool and I haven’t really found what I’m looking for, and for me, pro-x your tool, is still benchmark in this category, so it would be nice to give the people an overview of how this looks like and maybe also a few words regarding the role concept.
Jöran: 12:22
Yeah, sure. Well, as I already mentioned before, what, from my perspective, really differs us from many other companies is that we document the processes for our employees. Yeah, so we we thought of a easy to understand notation. So our process displays have a defined grid of six times ten, with a maximum of six different roles and ten activities or decisions per role. So we model in swim lanes from left to right and in addition to that, we show adjacent processes as well as related documents and it systems.
Jöran: 12:59
So the process display is supposed to give the employer an overview of the process at one glance, without scrolling or anything like that. So that’s the first important thing to understand. We want to create a picture that the people are able to understand easily without studying process management. Second thing is the easy to use application. Um, second thing is the easy to use application. Of course, we don’t have millions of euros and thousands of people like google, for example, yeah, when when they create their search functionalities. But we try to get the best out of what we have available. So the application itself is supposed to be easy to use. The access to the processes is supposed to be easy to use for the people.
Jöran: 13:46
And you have mentioned the role concept. Yeah, that’s, that’s a key part of it. Why? Because, well, first of all, we make accountability and responsibility transparent to the whole organization, because this is also shown on the process displays, so every person in our company can look up who is responsible for procurement processes, for example, at lufthansa technik, and we differentiate between the design of processes and the execution of processes.
Jöran: 14:23
The people that are responsible or accountable for designing the processes define how something is supposed to be done, and on the execution side, for example, the line managers they tell the people in their team what to do, and we have linked those two parts the execution and the design part in our application with defining the org charts and processes. We have a role-based approach. The roles are part of the org charts and the line managers have the opportunity and they are supposed to do so as well to assign the roles in our application to the people in their team, and that gives us a great link between the design and the execution. The line managers can ensure that every topic their team is responsible for is taken care of, and, on the other hand, the employees in the team know exactly what to do. Yeah, so that’s one of the most important method in the end we have and functionality in the tool, because it links the process design, the somehow theory, with the execution in the end?Mirko: 15:37
Yeah, okay, I’m really interested in what do the different stakeholders of this approach provide as feedback on what you are doing here, from all kinds of stakeholders?
Jöran: 15:51
Yeah, well, it somehow depends whom you’re talking to. Yeah, so Lufthansa is a company where people like to work and like to stay Not like you, you left. Yeah, so others stay for more than 40 years. Yeah, is a company where people like to work and like to stay not like you, you left. Yeah, so other stays for more than 40 years.
Jöran: 16:08
Yeah, so I heard about that when you talk to guys that are in the company for really a long, long time and and you haven’t or we haven’t sometimes not really managed to explain to them what the whole methodology is about and what’s in for them, yeah, so they say, well, we don’t like it, we don’t need it, it worked before, it will work without. So, um, there are others that say, well, it’s a very sophisticated methodology, keeping in mind how much time and money you are allowed to spend on the application. Therefore, the application is really user-friendly, especially compared to others in our company, and you have people that join the company from outside and those people are very positive about the methodology and the application because they have seen how other companies struggle with defining processes, really making interfaces transparent and also manage the complexity of their company, and that’s an additional method I would say that we have implemented also in the application itself. We call it regulation management, because the aviation industry is a very, very complex industry.
Jöran: 17:38
We have many laws and and regulations and norms we have to follow and we somehow have to ensure that everything we do is in compliance with that.
Jöran: 17:50
So what we do is we define certain tasks out of a law, out of a norm and we link it to the process.
Jöran: 18:00
Yeah, so we link the aviation regulation, for example in a task, to a process, and if this regulation asks us to ensure that the people have a certain qualification before working on an aircraft and we have a process that defines how we qualify our people, then we link those two together and we have a so-called a role that is called regulation managers.
Jöran: 18:28
Those are experts on a specific norm or a specific law and they check whether the way the process is described is in compliance with the law. If they say it is fine, everything is fine, they will approve it and after that we are allowed to publish the process. So what we do is we ensure that every process that is published, at least for Lufthansa Technik Group, is in compliance with all regulations and norms. So the people that are executing the process, they don’t have to know every single law or every single norm. As long as they follow the process, how it is described, they can be sure they are working in compliance with that. So, and that’s the way we really reduce the complexity for the people yeah, because there are so many laws and norms you’re not able to know all of them and you cannot ask your mechanic that is working on the aircraft to know all of that.
Mirko: 19:52
But as long as they work in accordance to the processes, they can be sure they are fine. So that’s a actually especially this part of the regulation management. It’s quite unique. So a lot of tools allow to link laws and standards to processes, but the structured approach of linking and integrating and checking compliance I’ve never seen anywhere else, so that’s super cool. And also with regards to the application, just to give you feedback from an outside perspective now, based on my search for human-centric bpm tool, pro access still the benchmark to have a look at, not because of the tool itself yeah, that’s super unique and it’s very user-friendly and human-centric, for sure but also because of the methodology behind it, the way you are mapping the processes and combining this with the BPM role concept. That’s something which you could really find out there, because a lot of companies are still on a lower maturity level than you are right now.
Jöran: 21:02
Well, that’s great to hear. And also, like you just mentioned, you have people in our company. When we talk about projects, the only thing they think of is the application. But the application, but the application is just a vehicle to bring our methodology to life. So in the end, the basis for everything is our methodology, our process of process management, and the application just makes it easier for us to actually bring it to life. So it’s really interesting to hear what you just mentioned from the insights you gained now outside the Lufthansa Group.
Mirko: 21:40
Yeah, absolutely, and yesterday, as I told you before, was the 25th anniversary of my wife being part of the Lufthansa Group. Actually, next year would have been mine. Unfortunately, I decided to not have this birthday, but I’ve been there too and I talked to some of her colleagues. She’s working in HR and they were really enthusiastic about processes and how they are now used to, for example, onboard the people and also this onboarding process based on the processes and help the people to get to know what they should do. What they are supposed to do by showing them the processes is still something which is quite unique there and doing this in this extent. So that was super interesting. To talk to these experts working on HR processes, for example.
Jöran: 22:33
That’s really interesting to see how this has changed after the pandemic, or even during the pandemic, and that’s one of our biggest challenges we are facing, I would say, from the central perspective, to really make those different benefits visible. So you just mentioned the onboarding. We have to onboard all the people concerning our methodology and application as well. So what we have had in place was web-based training. So everything that was part of the web-based training was correct, but it was just like showing functionalities. There were, I would say, no emotions in it. And, keeping in mind what we have already talked about, that the way people are thinking, their needs differ from, like, let’s say, say, five years ago um, we had definitely to change that. So we, we created a fully new approach, still a web-based training, yeah, but it was, I would say, more modern way to bring the message to the people. And in addition to that, we also thought about how can we, yeah, make the people more enthusiastic about process management? And from your time, you may remember how we did it in the past. Yeah, we had summits, or we called them pro-x days, yeah, where we had hundreds of people and we tried to find a gamified approach to do so. And now, what we thought about last year actually was um, how can we somehow bring process management a little bit to the people without them actually knowing that we are bringing process management to them? And what we developed together with the company was a Pro X cape game, so it’s like a shoebox with some stuff in it, and, in general, it’s not about teaching the people how our methodology works, but making them feel that process management may help them solving puzzles in that case and everyone in our company has to solve some kind of puzzles and we started with that at the beginning of this year and so far already more than 750 people played this game. So I’m pretty comfortable that we will manage to reach the thousand this year, which would be a great success, and the feedback the people give us is what it was fun, so process management is fun.
Jöran: 25:29
We learned that collaborating with others is always a good idea Instead of solving some issues on your own. So this best practice approach, knowledge management, is part of that. And well, I haven’t thought that documented processes in our application may be so useful. So we did not tell people that our methodology is the best in the world or something like that. We just made them experience something that they could relate to their daily work. In relation to process management and onboarding is always a question how do you onboard your people, how does a company onboard the people? And having defined processes with defined interfaces, available and accessible to everyone in your company is worth a lot, especially where we have more and more remote working right now where you’re not able to ask your colleagues in the next office for every second yeah, and that’s also what I heard.
Mirko: 26:39
So I can confirm what you just said from people who played that game that they were really excited about playing that game and getting in touch with processes and so on learning how to do this. So that’s a super cool approach. And to wrap this a bit up, what are your key learnings so far which you can share with the community here on the podcast?
Jöran: 27:01
Well, I would say one thing the needs of the people in a company have changed, so you cannot do it the way you did it before, so you have to think about new approaches. In our case, many experienced people are leaving, new colleagues are starting, so you have always the topic of knowledge management and onboarding, and to show how defined processes and process management in general can support the company in these issues is really, really helpful. And if you manage to find a way to to make it clear to the people what kind of opportunities are available and if they understand that, then you you have a situation like you just described, that the people start to understand. Oh, oh well, onboarding process we have defined processes we can use that. It’s very helpful.
Jöran: 27:58
People are leaving, all right, before they are retiring, maybe we need to keep the knowledge somehow in our processes. We do so. You have to find modern ways. Yeah, that’s important. Yeah, that’s important, and from my perspective, it is really important to find a way that does not sound like a teacher from the 70s. Yeah, it’s a collaborative approach, and keep in mind the people are the most important. The way you describe the process has to be in a way that the people are the most important. The way you describe the process has to be in a way that the people are able to understand it, so I really don’t like very difficult notations. Yeah, I’m a big fan of a very simplified notation. In our case, we have roles, we have activities, we have decisions and that’s mainly it. Yeah, and we are able able to model those processes in a way that we have RACI in it and everything. But it’s easy to understand. You don’t need to study anything.
Yeah. So, yeah, that’s really the most important thing from my perspective.
Mirko: 29:09
Okay, cool. Thanks for wrapping that up. So now we know where you are, but I’m also interested in looking into the future. So what is on your roadmap?
Jöran: 29:35
support this methodology with our application, so we have to do a little bit on that side rather than developing new methods right now, yeah, so so what we are focusing on especially is that the people do understand our methodology. We we have so-called gold clusters in in our team and the most important we are focusing on right now is pro-x understanding. The second most important is the application. So, um, we have new possibilities because technology is changing. Yeah, you have already had podcasts on artificial intelligence as well, yeah, so, so, very interesting topic. It does not heal all the problems from the past Definitely not. So, really checking where can you add value with artificial intelligence, from my perspective, is a key. We are doing that is a key. Um, we are doing that. Artificial intelligence is very good in comparing things, yeah, um, rather than interpreting things. So, um, wherever you have the possibility to find some tasks, yeah, that is mainly compare something, and we have that in our case as well um, we try to focus on that. What we already have in place is um translation by artificial intelligence, which is integrated into our application. So we check how can we further develop our application with the possibility artificial intelligence gives us, but without doing it in a way where you say, well, it’s a hype, you have to do something. Yeah, if it doesn’t add value, we will not do it.
Jöran: 31:20
Um, besides that, on on our roadmap are certain things that help the people. Yeah, we, we have been talking already about our new e-learning, web-based training. What we have already started to integrate is the structured help function in the application. Yeah, so whenever a person does not, is not really familiar with the methodology anymore or the way the application works, they now have a help button. They can click on every screen in our application and a little help will appear, a description what this special icon is about. And, and, yeah, what we try to do is to to bring the solution to the people where they have the problems.
Jöran: 32:10
Yeah, and focusing even more on the people. Yeah, to bringing in mind and that’s a way of understanding, um, also on management level. Yeah, why we are doing that. It’s not just about the approvals that’s a nice part, but it’s mainly about the people reducing complexity, making them familiar with it and really making the people work in accordance to the processes. And for next year, we will definitely have to do another survey, a user survey. We did the last one two years ago. We do that every three years to get an overview on how people are actually working with the application. Is it helping them or do we just think that from a central perspective? Because that is not helpful. And we try definitely to integrate the people more into the development of our process, of process management. A little bit less academic, a little bit more practical oriented, that’s what we try to focus on.
Mirko: 33:18
Yeah, that’s super cool to hear that you are more and more focusing on the human aspects. You already mentioned AI. It’s great to hear your perspective on that. I discussed that in the previous episodes that I’m not a big fan of AI or using AI to generate processes, because then it’s not the baby of the people who are working in and on that process. But I like AI to be used to support the people, to generate ideas for improvement, to compare things and so on.
Jöran: 33:50
Have you seen good examples that are already in place out there?
Mirko: 33:55
Yeah, I did, and actually we are just planning a follow-up podcast episode with Jupps von Heinze. He has been my guest about two years ago when we talked about IO, the tool which has AI in its name IO, a-i-i-o tool, which has AI in its name AIIO. They have a quite strong focus on using AI to help people working on processes Not to generate processes, but to use it to identify ideas for improvement, to identify risks, for example, example and so on. So, um, they have a quite good approach and other vendors are also working on on topics like that, like discovering um processes.
Mirko: 34:42
But I’m a bit skeptical on this because I really love the process of creating this picture as a co-creation process, where the people really create their masterpiece kind of art when they map their process out, so they can really identify with the process and they can fight for it. So, yeah, that’s my take on AI. But one other topic I would like to get your opinion on, because it was a hot topic when I left the company about two and a half years ago and that was the topic of process mining. So what’s your take on process mining from today’s perspective?
Jöran: 35:22
Yeah, well, to be honest, I think it’s a very good method. Yeah, it can be very, very helpful, but some of the companies within the Lufthansa group are struggling with really making use of it. Why are they struggling with it? Sometimes the process itself is not really described already. That would not be the case within the Lufthansa technique, but in other places. So you don’t have anything really to compare it to. You don’t know what the process is actually supposed to look like. Yeah, so, yeah, um, that’s the one thing. Second thing we are really struggling with is the quality of the data that is available, because, also in the past, we have not really explained the people why they should fill certain stamps on an it process or something like that. Yeah, so they they did not know why it is important to fill in certain information into the application. So when you have a bad data quality, your results are not good yeah, so that’s that’s uh, quite, quite, uh clear.
Jöran: 36:36
That’s the second, from my perspective, big problem. The third one there is, I think, something many companies, not just within the but in in general, are struggling with. Um, most of the companies, you have to approve the benefit before actually starting. So if you go somewhere and say I need 200,000 euros, they ask you how much do we save later on? And if it’s not a million and you cannot prove it, you will not get the 200,000. And whenever you start something new, it’s difficult because you don’t have historical data you can rely on. Yeah, you cannot say, well, we have already had five process mining topics and in average we saved two million.
Jöran: 37:26
So the importance of the cash flow has risen in our company at least, because you all know what has happened to the Lufthansa group during the pandemic. Yeah, we were almost bankrupt within two months. Yeah, and luckily we had the chance to to save our company and we are on a very good way already. Also on financial sector. But the cash is one of the most important KPIs. So when you cannot prove that you can recash that spend very quickly, you will not get the money for that. So from my perspective, today we are not really making use of the potential In different group companies. They are using it quite often and they have success. In others it’s more difficult and within the Lufthansa technique that’s the area where I have the best insights on I would say there’s a lot of room for improvement using process mining.
Mirko: 38:30
Yeah, okay. So thanks for these honest insights on process mining. That’s super interesting, I think, also for the community out there to see what others are doing. Thanks for this Cool, yeah, let’s wrap it up so, applying your overall experience to rethink processes, what are your top three recommendations to get to a more human-centric BPM approach and to inspire people for processes.
Jöran: 38:55
Yeah, first of all, define a document process, not for process management nerds like us. Yeah, but you have to do it for the people executing the process. That’s the most important thing. Secondly, I would say we always have to keep in mind that defining a process is worthless unless you inspire the people to execute them like you have defined them, and that’s not easy. Yeah to to to be honest. And last but not least, I would say don’t try to convince your colleagues by arguing that process management adds value. They have to experience it. Like I gave you the example with our Pro X Cape game. That’s the approach we are following and I would say, just looking at the current time, the past two years, we can see that this is the way the people are following us. I would say, at least within the Lufthansa group, a successful way. It would be interesting to see how that further develops in the next years. But yeah, those are, I would say, the three most important things.
Mirko: 40:04
Cool. Thanks for sharing all these insights. So if our listeners are interested in learning more about your activities, where can they go to Well?
Jöran: 40:14
they can definitely get in touch with me via linkedin. Yeah, so we are always interested in benchmarks. That’s something we have very good experiences with, because other companies are doing great things and it’s great idea to learn from each other. So just contact me via linkedin, write me an email, direct message, whatever you’d like. I would really appreciate it.
Mirko: 40:37
Thanks for that offer. And even beyond what we just talked about, which topic method tool expert would you recommend to us taking a closer look at to get more ideas on how to rethink processes? Could be anything, doesn’t have to be related to BPM rethink processes Could be.
Jöran: 40:55
Anything Doesn’t have to be related to BPM. Well, I would say maybe you should talk to Professor Andreas Mohring, who is a professor for artificial intelligence, digital business and innovation at the International School of Management at University of Hamburg, who has a very interesting view on how to combine artificial intelligence with archaic intelligence. I had the chance to listen to him and discuss with him six months ago and it’s really really interesting because he has a great way to point out where limits of artificial intelligence are and where they have strengths and where the people have really strengths. So that could be an idea. Maybe you get in touch with him.
Mirko: 41:43
Yeah, that’s super interesting. Maybe you can do an intro. It perfectly fits to what is coming up. So there will be another interview with a professor on human-centric aspects and, as I said, we’re planning to have another episode on BPM tools and AI. But maybe that’s a quite good follow-up. Yeah, cool. Thanks for that recommendation. So, before we leave today’s flight, this aircraft here, this episode, is there anything else you would like to share with our listeners?
Jöran: 42:16
well, I would say um, if you’re, like mirko and myself, a real process management enthusiast, yeah, don’t wait for anyone to to stop by and pick you up, and and you have to do it on your own. Yeah, if you’re really enthusiastic about processes, go in your company. Doesn’t matter whether it’s a small company or a large company, just fight for the benefits process management has always keep in mind. You can just add value if you have the people in mind. Yeah, and I’m really interested in seeing how AI will actually influence our life. It will. It’s just a way on how it will.
Jöran: 43:05
And I think the biggest hype is already over, because now people are realizing that also, artificial intelligence will not heal all our problems from the past. And really focus on adding value with what you do when it comes to process management, because then you will be successful in your company. The people in your company, the management, will then listen to you, explain to them why it is important. And, yeah, just be, be enthusiastic about it. Yeah, like like we are. And yeah, if something is not working like you expected it, just keep going love it.
Mirko: 43:48
Thank you for these final words, but um yeah, just just the last three words coming up. So how would you describe your flight experience in just three words? The one today yeah, exactly.
Jöran: 44:05
Well, I would say it was very reflecting for myself, because I had the opportunity to really think about what we are doing, why we are doing it and where we want to go to. That’s always important to take your time for that as well. So, reflecting, definitely Motivating for sure, because it’s the best thing to talk to other enthusiasts, because that gives you energy for, in this case, next week week, because today is a friday for us yeah, so, um, yeah, energy to to keep on working on it. It really motivates me to talk to people like you and and also others, so just get in contact with me. I really would appreciate that. And, last but not least, this flight was also very relaxing for me because I we know each other.
Jöran: 44:56
For about what is it? 14 years, I would say already, yeah, and intensively. We had the chance to work together for about six years and, well, you have always been a great colleague with great ideas, great great perspectives on process management. Even though you’re not a colleague anymore, you still have great perspectives on process management. Even though you’re not a colleague anymore, you still have great perspectives on process management and it’s always fun to talk to you about it. And, yeah, so reflecting, motivating and relaxing, I would say oh, that’s super cool.
Mirko: 45:29
Thanks for this feedback on on this flight experience. And I’m Actually. You’re sitting next to the window and you did not fall asleep, so it’s like I don’t know how that could happen.
Jöran: 45:42
Not too relaxing, obviously.
Mirko: 45:45
Oh, I love it. Jöran, thank you so much for all these insights. It was super interesting for me to get an update on what is going on in the process management world of the Lufthansa Group, and I’m super curious where this journey will lead to, so maybe we can have a follow-up in the future as well. So thank you so much for being my guest today. Have a great day. Bye-bye, you’re welcome.Jöran: 46:07
Thank you very much. Bye-bye.
Jingle: 46:11
Let’s recap today’s new process inspiration.
Mirko: 46:15
Yeah, I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. To be honest, it was only when I left Lufthansa that I really became aware of the level of maturity the organization has reached. After the recording, I discussed this with Jöran and we realized how beautifully a process culture has developed over all the years. When I think back to the beginning of the project, management often had little understanding of our process-oriented approach. That was in the early 2000s, so 20 years ago.
Mirko: 46:49
I’ve modeled processes with employees, team leads and department department heads, and they actively work on and in processes. In the meantime, some of them have climbed the corporate ladder and are now members of Lufthansa Technics’ top management. This naturally ensures that management today has an entirely different affinity for processes. So same applies to employees on all levels. Process culture has grown over 20 years and the younger employees don’t even know a word without Pro-X or without business process management. So, but don’t be afraid that it will always take 20 years to build a process culture. I think it can go much faster if you apply human-centric approach and especially a holistic framework right from the start. But it simply takes time to develop a culture. For sure, I’d be happy to help you to get there too. So once again, a big thank you to Joran for sharing his insights with us.
Mirko: 47:57
By the way, we’ve already recorded this episode mid of October, so I’m not going on a vacation next week Actually it was a pretty nice one and there will be another episode of New Process Podcast coming on December 11th. In this episode we’ll finally explore how process can prevent burnout with Professor Dr Eugene Bogodistov Also super interesting. So don’t forget to follow the New Process Podcast. But for now, thank you much for listening. Have a fantastic day. Bye-bye and auf Wiedersehen.
Jingle: 48:30
You’ve been listening to the New Process Podcast. Make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode for more tools, methods and best practices to rethink your process and push it to the next level. Thank you for listening.
Mirko: 48:45
Before you leave. I know how hard this BPM journey is, and it is even harder if you are doing this all on your own. To change this, I’d like to invite you to join forces with other BPM enthusiasts at New Process Pro. New Process Pro is my online community for people like you and me. Beyond networking with other process guys, you’ll find tools, methods and best practices at New Process Pro. To join for free, just go to newprocesslab.com/pro. Thank you very much, have a fantastic day. Bye-bye.
